Not too flexy
Perhaps I voiced concern before I got the straight shaft that it might be too flexy at the relatively long 57" length. (The shaft is long because the blade is ZRE’s relatively bottom heavy tulip shape, or whatever they call it.)
Having used it for three years, I like the flex. Sort of like a solid wood shaft of about the same length and diameter. Racing types or people who want every gram of force for efficiency may want the stiffest possible shafts, but not my old and slow shoulders.
Not sure what you need to know, but
ww paddles reinforced only with Kevlar were a disaster, because Kevlar has crappy compression strength. Kevlar should be used mainly where strength in tension is important. Though brittle, carbon can supply strength in tension where needed in a paddle, and provides great strength in compression as well. I’m not sure why anyone chose to include Kevlar in carbon/Kevlar paddle shafts, because every bit of Kevlar subtracts from compresssion stength on the concave side of a stressed shaft.
Glenn, for kneeling, a five degree
bent shaft angle is best for forward paddling.
The twelve degree angle used in marathon racing and for sitting hit-and-switch simply does not apply for kneeling. Five degrees is consistent with optimum catch and no-J-stroke paddling.
People seem to adapt to kneeling with 12 degree bents, but physics is physics. AND a five degree paddle can be managed rather like a zero degree.
Silver Creek offered a three degree ww paddle, late in their life. Roger Nott has one. And hidden in the blade mount and geometry of my Mitchell slalom is a bit of “trail” which makes it feel like a 3 degree bent, while it handles near neutral for maneuvers.
Composite Straight Shaft Paddle
– Last Updated: Feb-06-14 5:21 AM EST –
With dual power face (front or back) with razor thin edge by Patrick Moore. Simply exquisite for the kneeling canoeist who paddles only on one side.
My feeling is
that if you are paddling bony rivers all the time and at a quite pace you probably have little need for a carbon paddle and in all probability you will beat the s**t out of it in short order anyway. I use a Zav bent shat all the time but the environment you describe is one situation when I would leave my Zav in the car. I do not baby my Zav either. I use it regularly on trips and in whitewater. But slow and bony rivers? Nope.
No longer made or available.
My feeling is pretty much the same
but I generally try to avoid telling people they really don’t want what they want.
But a very lightweight carbon paddle would probably not be my first choice either. A paddle like the ZRE Power Surge really shines for paddlers using a high cadence or going long distances. But I will admit that a featherweight paddle can become quite addictive no matter what type of paddling you do.
Having said that, I will point out that all ZRE paddles are made in three parts (grip, shaft, and blade) so it is possible to replace a damaged or badly worn blade (although it is not cheap). I don’t know how the durability of ZRE’s bent shaft Power Surge and FW-Z paddles compares to that of my ZRE Power Curve paddle, but I so use the Power Curve in whitewater and it has held up to some pretty good knocks so far.
As g2d points out, if you anticipate spending most of your time kneeling, you will be better served bio-mechanically with either a straight shaft paddle, or one with considerably less angulation at the elbow than the typical 12 degree bents that marathoners and racers use. Those guys are always seated. When paddling from a kneeling position you can plant your stroke farther forward, and it is desirable to do so.
I had similar doubts
However, I thought light weight is nice no matter what. I like to go down the river for 2-3 days and do have to paddle through some longer stretches of pools. But, I’ll admit that I may encounter submerged rocks all of a sudden.
While the ZRE paddles are racing paddles, people seem to enjoy their lightness even in non-racing contexts.
Carbon paddles can be ok going down
bony rivers. I use carbon ZRE paddles pretty much 100% of the time on the central IL bony rivers & streams. The edge will get nicked & scratched when contacting rocks, but won’t likely break unless it gets wedged or is used like a crow bar. I haven’t severely damaged a ZRE going downstream, but I don’t do whitewater.
Going upstream in a bony river is another matter. In just one upstream venture that lasted about an hour last summer, I really abused the edge of my ZRE Medium straight shaft paddle. Very disappointing.
During most of its life, my Mitchell has
been used on rivers that are often shallow and rocky. Same for my similar Clinch River. Both have carbon shafts. The Mitchell’s blade is glass faced, the Clinch River has carbon facing. The Mitchell is well over 15 years old and is not in need of any maintenance, though one can see that it has been used. The Clinch River has the carbon fibers worn off the bottom part of one side of the blade.
I know I’m easier on paddles than most, but that’s not because I paddle deep, muddy rivers. Sophisticated ww paddles can last a long, long time, in the environment for which they were designed.
That’s Sad?
You mean no one makes composite canoe paddles with identical and symetrical front and back power faces anymore? That’s too bad, for the convenience of being able to use either the front or back of the blade equally sure saves a lot of time and effort doing various maneuvers where the canoe responds almost instantly. Certainly, maybe, those freestyle paddlers might use them?
+1
…Hope it’s just a temporary lull, butttt…things are really getting consolidated in the paddling world.
Meaning nobody makes Pat Moore Ques.
Sure…I have one
and I use it primarily for FreeStyle. I also am always on the lookout for another for a price that my meager budget allows. Pat Moore had a tough time making much of a profit for those fantastic one-piece paddles. Most paddlers are not willing to spend $400 plus for a paddle, so the limited paddle market tends to go where the demand and the dollar intersect.
There are a couple
which I mentioned earlier in this thread, to wit:
http://www.boundarywaterscatalog.com/wenonah-canoe/black-light-straight-24675
and the Grey Owl Raven listed on this page:
http://www.oakorchardcanoe.com/canoepaddles.php
Those are the same paddle.
Disagree about low degree bent; cue
My disagreement in this post has nothing to do with measurements or bio-mechanics, which I will accept if data are available, but simply with my own personal preferences paddling on my knees with many, many bent shaft paddles since 1982.
I have bents of various degrees: 2.5, 5, 10, 12, and 15 – with a variety of blade shapes and curves. I also have a Mitchell double bend, 8 deg. on top and 15 deg. on bottom. I don’t know if that means this is equivalent to a 7 degree single bend. I doubt it, as the mechanical differences are more than just the bend angles.
In a very real sense, the angle of bend does not matter much to ME for MY type of paddling, which is medium speed cruising on my knees about 90% of the time. All the bents work for forward strokes and the usual (fairly trivial) turning strokes on flat water. For maneuvering in rapids, I much prefer a straight shaft, though I have done long class 3-4 runs – e.g., the Hudson from Newcomb to North Creek – with a 15 degree wooden bent shaft. All the paddles are “doable”, and I find that I can quickly adjust my personal bio-mechanics.
My long-evolved and current preference for FORWARD stroking, on both knees and while seated – FOR ME – are my higher degree bends, the 10-15 degree ones. The 12 degree ZRE now seems just right for any paddling posture.
Much to my wooden traditionalist horror, I found that the ZRE’s light weight trumped all other considerations once I started using them. I also like the efficiency and power of the ZRE blade shape. It became intolerable to pick up one of my wooden straights after paddling mostly with the 12 degree ZRE Power Surge 8.75" bent, so I bought a companion ZRE 8.75" straight. However, I wanted a symmetrical blade for palm rolling the straight, so I got a Z-WW blade for that.
BTW, Pat Moore propels a canoe with a cue not a que.
Patrick Onno once volunteered here to clone in carbon any wooden paddle sent to him. I don’t know if that offer is still open.
Grey Owl Raven
The webpage the second link directs to has (in addition to carbon Wenonah paddles) a Grey Owl Raven paddle.
Scroll down farther.
They used to have a carbon straight
shaft identical to Wenonah’s.
Now, it appears, they just have the bent shaft.
It’s mostly personal preference
– Last Updated: Feb-07-14 5:57 PM EST –
For forward stroke efficiency much of the advantage of a bent over a straight shaft paddle is that the stroke can be taken closer back toward the hip without "lifting water" at the end of the stroke.
The further forward of the paddler's hips the stroke can be taken and completed the less paddle elbow angle is required to keep the blade face within 10 or so degrees of vertical. Kneeling paddlers are typically able to utilize more torso rotation to plant the paddle further forward of the hip, so they can get by with a straight shaft or a bent with less angle.
The majority of marathon paddlers and racers utilize torso rotation more effectively, keep their torsos upright and weight forward and their strokes shorter and like bents with around 12 degrees of angulation. Recreational paddlers are often a bit more relaxed (read slouched), planting the paddle not as far forward, and bringing the stroke farther back and some of them prefer bents with something like a 14 degree angle.
There are a couple of other advantages to bent shaft paddles compared to straights. The bent shaft allows the shoulders to stay a little lower at the plant and the grip hand arm can be a little straighter so that the top arm can be in an ergonomically better position to pull. The more angulation at the elbow of the paddle shaft the easier it is for the blade to clear the gunwales when swinging it across the boat when paddling sit and switch, which is basically what marathon paddlers, flat water, and down river racers all do.
Many (not all) individuals find that doing J strokes with a bent shaft of 12 degrees or greater puts more stress on the wrists. Many also find bent shaft paddles more difficult to use with in-water recoveries. Nearly everyone finds some loss of efficiency doing lateral draws and sculls with bent shaft paddles as opposed to straight shafts.
I tried David Yost's custom ZRE Power Surge a few years back, which I believe was a 7 degree (could be wrong). But David likes to kneel. He found that to be the best compromise for himself. I have heard a few individuals recommend using a 12 degree bent for the bow partner and a 7 degree bent for the stern partner in tandem canoes if the stern plans to control using J strokes.