Carbon fiber river canoe paddle?

There’s a push-down component
with slalom racers also. And there are things going on with the shoulder girdle moving over the top of the torso.



I’ve found that torso twist is not extensive when the stroke is ended around the hip. There definitely is a twist, and a downward flexion, and something going on with the shoulder girdle. I think that exaggeration of any of those components is inefficient, just as exaggeration of arm push/pull is inefficient.



When you watch Bob Foote demonstrating torso rotation, you have to remember that there’s no way he can rotate like that with his short stroke. Not enough time or space.

Yes Glenn and Gary

– Last Updated: Feb-08-14 3:10 PM EST –

I agree with both of you. The semantics pertaining to the biomechanics of the forward stroke is kind of tricky. Terms such as push or pull usually grossly oversimplify or misrepresent what is actually going on.

I cannot find the site with the graphical depictions of the forward stroke I alluded to earlier. Perhaps I saw this in a video. In searching for it I came across a couple of other sites, one of which I had seen in the past. (Warning: some of this stuff is rather arcane and most people will probably wish to scroll on. What follows is intended for the certifiable.)

Here is an author who compares stroke mechanics with straight shaft and bent shaft paddles and makes a case for the 7 degree bent:
http://redrockstore.com/paddles/7degree.htm

I don't care much for his diagrams but it so happens that he uses language similar to what I did when he describes the straight shaft paddle in comparison to the bent shaft and says:

"Because the straight shaft paddle does not clear the body of a paddler like a bent shaft paddle does, the paddle-swinging dynamics change. The paddle gets lifted higher into the air before it's dunked in the water. Then, as it is pulled through the water by the blue arm, the green arm ends up actually pushing forward. This makes the blue arm point of contact act like a fulcrum or the "pivot point on a see-saw"."

As the diagrams show, the "blue arm" represents the shaft arm and the "green arm" the grip arm.

Years ago, Harry Roberts described the forward stroke thus:

"At entry the upper arm cocks rearward as if preparing to throw a jab. Simultaneously, the lower arm reaches forward while the torso rotates to increase the reach
of the lower arm. From this paddle entry position, the upper arm thrusts forward, the lower arm pulls rearward, and the torso rotates back to the neutral position. During the lower arm's pulling phase, the elbow remains straight and rigid."

I think most competitive paddlers have rejected this bottom arm straight and rigid style of paddling. I still hear people talking about the top arm punching forward from time to time.

I think this piece gives a much more accurate description of the forward stroke:

http://www.piragis.com/newsletter/canoestrokeefficiency.html

Notice that George Arimond advocates maintaining a bend in the lower arm elbow at approximately 140 degrees throughout the power phase of the stroke. So the bottom arm does not really flex during the power phase, but it is not maintained in full extension.

As for the top arm, George says:

"The top arm (i.e. the arm holding the top grip) moves with the bottom arm, but instead of pulling it presses in a forward/downward arc (see Figure 1)."

So he doesn't describe the top arm as either pushing or pulling but "pressing" forward and downward.

As for the thing I mentioned about not having to lift as much at the plant with a bent shaft paddle, take a look at Figure 1 in that last link which depicts the "Preparatory Position", the part of the stroke just before the paddle enters the water. The author points out that at this position the paddle shaft will be angled backwards from the horizontal about 40-50 degrees with a straight shaft paddle, but about 52-62 degrees with a 12 degree bent.

Sit in your chair and imagine yourself getting ready to plant the blade of a 12 degree bent shaft paddle. Put your arms and hands in that position. Now imagine planting the blade of a straight shaft paddle of about the same length, with the blade entering the water at the same angle and do the imaginary adjustment of your arms and hands that is necessary considering that the paddle shaft is now going to be angling back toward you by 12 additional degrees.

For me that involves increasing the flex in the grip arm elbow and moving both hands back toward my trunk, but also upwards, the grip hand much more than the shaft hand. That is what I meant by having to lift the straight shaft paddle more at the plant.

The article by George Arimond is actually based on a graduate research paper he did for Bemidji State University (where else?) back in 1980:

http://minds.wisconsin.edu/handle/1793/56800?show=full

He filmed 3 top marathon canoe racers with markers placed on their joint centers at wrists, elbows, shoulders, center point of head, and center point of torso. A stop action projector was used to project still frame images onto a computer digitizer tablet. I imagine that computer graphics capabilities have advanced a bit since 1980.

There were some interesting findings. Although there were more similarities than differences, he found significant variations in body mechanics from paddler to paddler, and even in the same paddler from paddling side to paddling side.

I reread this and will summarize some of his findings that I thought were significant.

1. For each paddler the in-water phase was about 60% of the total stroke duration, and the out-of-water phase about 40%.

2. During the in-water phase there was an axis of angular rotation or "pivot point" at the interface of the water surface and the throat of the paddle. The paddle shaft rotated forward and the paddle blade backward relative to this pivot point during the power stroke.

3.During most of the power phase this pivot point remained stationary relative to the camera and shore as the boat moved past it. But the pivot point actually moved forward relative to the shore somewhat at the start of the in-water phase, and slightly backward at the end. The fact that the pivot point moved forward somewhat during the plant argues that competitive paddlers do not load the paddle until the blade is fully immersed.

4. During the preparatory phase of the stroke the top forearm of the paddlers was extended to within 25 degrees of full extension. During the power phase the upper arm forearm showed a very gradual extension until reaching the end of the in-water phase. But there was significant fluctuation in this extension pattern, especially in the middle 40% of the in-water phase, and it showed no consistent comparative pattern test subjects or strokes. Moreover, one test subject when paddling on the left side (but not the right) demonstrated flexion of the upper arm forearm during the first part of the in-water phase, followed by extension in the latter part of the phase.

5. The paddlers all had some degree of lower forearm flexion at the preparatory phase, typically with the forearm at 155-170 degrees (10-35 degrees of elbow flexion). The lower forearm flexed further during the in-water phase by a mean of 43 degrees, so the paddlers typically ended the in-water phase of the stroke with the lower forearm at around 120 degrees on average. (Note that this finding is somewhat contradictory to the advice given by George Arimond in the prior link.) But again there was significant fluctuation of this lower elbow movement during the middle 40 percent of the in-water phase with no consistent comparative pattern of this fluctuating movement between strokes.

6. (This is I think the most significant finding.) At the preparatory phase the top upper arm was extended above the shoulder girdle and the bottom upper arm was at or below shoulder level. From this preparatory position both upper arms began flexion which continued throughout the in-water phase.

"The top and bottom upper arm movement was almost identical between subjects during the in-water phase, especially during the middle 40 percent of the water phase which provides greatest leverage for the paddle blade. Remember that during this middle 40% of the water phase there were significant variations in the manner in which the paddlers were extending or flexing their forearms.

7. All of the paddlers demonstrated some degree of torso rotation away from the paddle side and slight forward flexion of the trunk at the preparatory phase. The degree of torso rotation at the preparatory phase was observed to vary between paddlers. At the preparatory phase the upper shoulder was elevated and the lower shoulder depressed.

8. During the in-water phase the thorax rotated back toward the paddle side. The trunk flexed forward during the first 10-30% of the in-water phase, then extended until reaching approximately mid-air phase. But the subjects demonstrated considerable variation in the trunk flexion/extension movement. Mean degree of trunk flexion during the initial water phase was 9 degrees with 19 degrees of trunk extension occurring during the rest of the water phase and beginning of the in-air phase. During the latter part of the in-air phase the trunk flexed back to the starting position.

9. Movements of the head/neck were always opposite those of the trunk and seemed to initiate movements of the trunk, but there was considerable variation in movement patterns between individuals.

In his conclusion, George Arimond makes the following arguments:

"The uniform flexion of the upper arms was one of the most significant findings of this research. The importance of this movement is recognized in the fact that it occurs when the paddle blade is in a position to exert maximum leverage on the water. It was further noted that the upper arms showed the greatest degree of movement. Considering this large degree of movement and the paddle blade's maximum leverage angle, it is reasonable to suggest that the upper arm exerts the greatest leverage on the paddle. Movement within the trunk allows the upper arms to achieve a maximum range of flexion as well as maximum leverage. As the water phase beings, the trunk flexes, which assists the upper arms in submerging the paddle blade. As the paddle blade becomes submerged, the trunk extends, which allows the upper arms to continue flexion without uselessly submerging the blade deeper. The torso rotation and the shoulders' return action also aid the upper arm."

So although you could argue that the upper arm is "pushing" and the lower arm is "pulling" it seems that the most important driver of the stroke is the powerful upper arm flexion on the trunk, coupled with movements of the trunk (both rotational and flexion/extension) arcing the paddle shaft forward and downward while rotating the blade backward around a pivot point near the water's surface.

We think of the paddle shaft and paddle blade moving backward during the power phase but in reality what is happening during the power phase after the blade is fully immersed at the plant is that we are imparting a powerful angular rotation around an axis near the paddle throat as the boat moves past that axis (or pivot point). The motion of the paddle blade is more like that of a paddle wheel steamer with only one paddle blade than a blade being pulled back through the water.

And the upper arm motion during the paddle stroke is nothing like a jab or a rapid "thrusting forward" of the upper arm. In a jab the forearm is rapidly extended while the upper arm is simultaneous extended, rather than flexed.

Amen…You nailed it…
For as my canoe guru, Patrick Moore, would remind me many many years ago (back in the days of long sleeve silk shirts): “the purpose of the top arm is to move the bottom arm forward.”

Seems neither redrock nor Arimond
deals with paddling while kneeling. I can apply most of what Arimond says to kneeling with a straight, or straigter, paddle shaft. I wonder if having a very long torso (me) affects optimum paddle shaft angle when kneeling. Five degrees is fine for forward stroking, but I can’t see going higher than that. A more compact paddler might be more efficient, kneeling, with a 7 degree, or a bit higher.



Redrock’s diagram shows an exaggerated version of a sitting stern paddler using a straight shaft. Kneeling in a tandem, one can use the same sort of shortened, firm catch, early feather stroke as works so well for solo paddling. One will have to J, but not the sort of trailing J shown by Redrock, which is more like a rudder stroke. The J should be done when the paddle shaft is passing through vertical. (I need to practice this. I don’t paddle stern often anymore, and I don’t J much paddling solo.)

Lutra from Curtis Canoe (then)
I have a much sought after Lutra with a 5 degree bend that an amazing person(Tony Fig) sold to me to compliment the Sawyer Autumn Mist that I was paddling with his wife and him at the time. It’s a great paddle but it has a HUGE blade. I had Zaveral make me a paddle with the same 5 degree bend with one of his widest blades available(a much smaller blade area than the Lutra). I have loaned this paddle to others on group paddles for short times and have noticed both kneelers and sitters really LIKE the 5 degree bend as well as the exteme LIGHT WEIGHT! You can’t go wrong with Zav… You just have to figure out what you want …

Its funny -
you guys are all over the light and bent graphite craze (I’ve been there too and I do love my ZRE) and here I am having a wood canvas tripping canoe built and thinking about ordering a couple of beaver tail paddles from Shaw and Tenney. Funny how our interests evolve. Seems I’m going backwards.

Nothing wrong with going back to
“Canadian” paddling style and corresponding equipment. If we’re not trying to cover water like marathon paddlers, I wonder whether the Canadian style isn’t very relaxing and efficient.



I have a 60" Nashwaak paddle with a long blade, and I’ll admit that it didn’t feel right at all when I first tried it, but it’s a respected “Omer Stringer” style paddle, and if I keep at it, it should start to feel right.



Have to get a proper boat to go with it though, like a wood-canvas Prospector…

All the Way Back to ZRE Pizza Paddle
Blades? Remember all carbon Barton paddles and Black Barts? Should be able to find used ones around? Sold the 8 inch wide Black Bart, but still got the ball cap and t-shirt. Any offers? Sorry, won’t part with them yet.

That’s Why I Like Dual Face Paddles
Where you can use the front face exactly like the back power face, especially when doing wet recoveries.

T&Ss are a pretty dense 1piece rpg51
…for a wood paddle…fwiw.

By dense - you mean
heavy? Do you know other builders of very traditional wood paddles?

Tremolo Paddles
Caleb Davis has been making handcrafted wood paddles for more than 20 years. Typically finished with a fine knife edge, they slice effortlessly through the water. Caleb lives in the town of Long Lake, NY.



http://tremolopaddles.wcha.org/tremelopaddles/Process.html

Unbelievable!
SUP paddle with “two power faces?” That’s wonderful, thanks for the link.

No, not really weight(although a little)

– Last Updated: Feb-13-14 1:18 PM EST –

They're excellent paddles but...depending on how aggressive your "pull" is..in conjunction to what one's physical makeup is, they can be a little on the "stiff" side for some of us on the lighter-build.
In a little contrast to T&S...Redtail and GreyOwl are two companies that are 2nd to none..(just imho..others online can vouch for)....and those ~5deg-bent companies should be acknowledged, to at least looked at...a great degree of it is personal preference geared with one's physical makeup..
Capitalism at its Finest...

http://www.redtailpaddle.ca/

http://greyowlpaddles.com/paddles/

$.01

I see what you are saying -
I love my ZRE for lightness when paddling long hours - but I also like the stiff and beefy S&T traditional paddles. Hard to explain. A friend has a Grey Owl and it is a very nice paddle but not really a traditional paddle.

Which Gray Owl does your friend have
that’s not really a traditional paddle?



I Have the Chieftain and I think a Sagamore and they are pleasant to paddle with when I’m going for aesthetics and am paddling water deep enough to submerge them all the way. The Chieftain is a bit larger blade than my joints & muscles like to use for too long.



For most of my paddling I’m using either a bent or straight ZRE Medium and haven’t found anything I prefer over them.

Not sure -

– Last Updated: Feb-13-14 7:34 PM EST –

might be the Voyageur. I think I'm looking for a traditional and rugged paddle for tripping in rough conditions. Not looking for a showpiece. Rugged is key.

Ah, rugged like my walnut beavertail.
It’s rugged, but heavy.

THANK YOU Guys !!!
For real world info to study and learn from.



Apologies for delayed reply … Out of respect for Bob, whom I opine, makes the coolest paddles in the world, I don’t talk about mine much but yes, I also make canoe ( and SUP ) paddles in many different profiles. Albeit, they are built from a different perspective that, IMO, those with real world experience and tenure would appreciate these subtleties.



YES !!! I can replicate your favorite paddle in an ultra light construction. Can be foam or balsa core then reinforced with carbon, glass or a blend of the two in order to achieve the feel you want. No worries to tweak the shape based on your input to pull out desired characteristics or super reinforce layup for rock, coral, oyster bashing durability.



FWIW … Coming this spring, i will also have an elegant, adjustable length, single blade “bloated pear” shaft available with two different grips. … Right now, along with my own profiles, I can put any blade on an adjustable ( round ) shaft with a palm grip but the new “pear” ones will be so much more appreciated by finesse paddlers…



Each blade and shaft layup will be custom tailored to your intended use and expectations.



I cannot say enough about the ability to adjust the paddle length while out on the water … Its not just for trial and error, or something you set on the beach and then ‘deal’ with all day … Having a paddle with an adjustable length range + the ability to switch ‘gears’ anytime in seconds can make a HUGE difference in performance, comfort and overall, everyday, VMG.



Please feel free to call or write with any questions or ideas you want to bounce of of me.


undamming the rivers

– Last Updated: Jun-11-16 10:41 AM EST –

Ever try a qb paddle? Quickblade rules! Don't be a dam fool, read report at http://infinityproject.wordpress.com Remember when Bush, Dick, and Colin were our leaders, F.D.A. Surge on General Dr. See Very E. T. Coop was doleing out the weaponized drugged GMO feed, the leader of the W.T.O.'s (front group pushing the killer GMO food on us) Robber too and the World Trade Center went down like a professional building drop? They told you, while you're screwing each other you're getting bushwacked and we're stealing the place from ya! I decided to appear as the chief law enforcement officer of the entire multiuniverse project, highjack e.t's computer, force it to assist me by barbecooing the worst of the dam fools ,serving em up as they serve up as written in the bible (the trade mark name of the dam and ditch farmed GMO feed the dam fools are eating is Roundup Ready Ignite). 9/11/2001 even spells out denying the levy to mill you know. Plus, I'm seeking 12 apostalettes, 6 in reserve in another man for a reverse last supper presentation in pursuit of the Presidency to win control of the U.S. military, undam the rivers, charge em for it, get out of national debt, save the world and make a fortune building collective productive structures. Once again the details are recorded in a 420 page report at http://infinityproject.wordpress.com with me making way across the continent and back (including 1st time descent of the Snake River) + undamming the rivers as the character they told ya would show up just in time to save ya!