That might be of interest if I ever
had occasion to do a reverse sweep.
Perhaps because I’m very tall and get everything done from a considerable vertical angle, I seldom get the paddle horizontal enough to do a sweep of any sort.
But analyze it however you will, I find it hard to believe that switching power face in the middle of a stroke will be a more effective use of paddle-in-the-water.
Actually…
by switching the power face in the middle of the stroke, you’re essentially doing two strokes, a stern pry and a bow draw, without lifting the paddle from the water. You’re mostly skipping the part of any sweep where the paddle is providing power parallel to the canoe. To me, a sweep is meant to make the canoe inscribe an arc. If the canoe is more or less sitting still, the sweep, whether forward or reverse, will make it move forward or backward while turning. If you do the reverse sweep without switching power faces, that’s what the canoe will do. If you switch power faces, it comes a lot closer to pivoting in place rather than moving backward. If the canoe is moving forward, switching power faces makes it turn quickly while maintaining at least some of its forward momentum, while not switching kills the momentum completely…it’s like applying brakes and one wheel locks up. The canoe stops forward motion while turning quickly.
Of course, it all depends upon what you want to accomplish, since both ways do different things, either of which can be useful in a given situation
In freestyle its called a christie
and accomplished best by a palm roll which leaves the powerface always on duty…there is a micro second during a flip when you have nothing except pushing down and pulling up water while the blade rotates.
If you have a grip that allows it the former is easier. The latter if you have a unidirectional or t grip.
I find in compound back strokes (another beast I know) I have become too set in flipping the blade rather than palm rolling.
I was thinking about freestyle as
a venue that would force me into many strokes I never use. And freestyle is in some ways the ultimate of what one can do with a solo canoe.
But when I’m just running rapids and rivers, even when the need for maneuvering comes thick and fast, I find myself getting everything done with slalom technique, and that means 85 % directed forward strokes. My boats are so responsive that there’s seldom a need for sweep strokes, or fancy compound strokes either. Keep the boat moving forward, and adjust its forward motion as needed.
That’s one reason I never understood the discussions of compound backstrokes. Backstrokes? Real whitewater boats don’t do backstrokes, not since reverse gates were abolished from racecourses!
I agree with Bs, et. al.
If one looks back at how traditionally the Solo Bow Draw was taught, the grip hand is almost in the opposite armpit with the thumb down. This locks in the arms and allows almost total use of the more powerful torso. Additionally the shaft hand also changes angles, bringing the large latissimus dorsi muscle into play. It naturally follows that in a Rev Sweep by the time the paddle is almost perpendicular to the centerline the maneuver needs to become a Bow Draw, thus eliminating any Reverse possibility and bringing in the stronger Bow Draw stroke.
If a paddler wants to hold the grip between his butt cheeks and do the Hula to complete a maneuver, its fine by me, whatever floats your boat. I’m trying to respond to the OP’s question. I do not endorse or reject anyone else’s methods.
FS is quiet water
and compound backstrokes good tools for getting into the wrong bog when there is no way to turn around.
Despite the emphasis in the US on canoeing being a river oriented sport, the farther North you move the more important lakes become and the less documented some routes are.
Backing up is often done as a result of a route finding error.
There are some moves in FS that you should absolutely not do in whitewater.
KM: With all due respect,
I know you know what a Christie is. I’ve seen you do a thousand or more and seen you teach that many at my symposium alone. I think however, you may not be remembering the Solo Rev Sweep. It’s an old school thing and not much in favor now-a-days. So, having said that, the FS Christie is not a Solo Rev Sweep. Also a palm roll would defeat the purpose of a true Solo Rev Sweep. In case some folks out there are confused by this, a FS Christie is a pivot turn to the Onside which starts by Initiating a turn while under way with a hard correction after a forward stroke. The paddle is then placed in the Low Brace position near the stern. The grip hand faces upward and the shaft hand is on top of the shaft and the backface of the blade is down. The paddler holds pressure on the blade while the hull pivots around it. When momentum starts to slow the paddler may execute a palm roll to set the grip hand up for a high brace conclusion which draws the Bow to the paddle. In a Solo Rev Sweep the placement is near the stern with the grip thumb up which means the blade edge is facing upward. Sweep the paddle toward the Bow and somewhere near perpendicular to the centerline rotate the grip thumb toward your armpit then all the way downward and touching the front of the shoulder oe right below. The shaft hand also rotates at an angle back toward the forearm. Lock that in and rotate the torso. It’s one of the strongest strokes in canoeing. In terms of strength, it is akin to a Cross Bow Draw, albeit not as forceful. The only comparison is that they are both pivots to the Onside. The Solo Rev Sweep can be done from a standing position, however.
I have seen this taught
the way GG describes. The idea being that you have more power with the thumb down going into the bow draw and it does involve releasing pressure on the grip using a palm roll. Occasionally I execute a reverse sweep this way, but not usually. whether the back face or power face is used, there is a tendency to create backward momentum, which is why it generally is used to execute a spin from a dead stop position. Using the reverse sweep while having any forward momentum would have a detrimental effect. Of course there can always arise a situation in that that might be what you would want to do, however there are likely more efficient ways to accomplish the goal.
Reverse sweep + transition + bow draw
– Last Updated: Jun-10-14 12:28 PM EST –
(1) It seems there is general agreement that this compound stroke is a back face reverse sweep that transitions into a power face bow draw. The transition happens when the paddle is approximately aside (or slightly behind) the paddler.
There are two ways the transition can be done:
(a) Grant says you flip the paddle face in the water while maintaining the top grip. This will cause a some inefficient turbulence, in my opinion.
(b) You can also do the transition via a palm roll, which requires no in-water paddle face flip. To me, this is sleeker and more efficient. However, as pblanc points out, you probably don't want to do a palm roll with a bent or other dedicated face paddle, because you will then have the back side as the power face during the bow draw phase.
That leaves two other possibilities for something that could be called a "reverse sweep".
(2) Do the entire sweep from bow to stern with the back face. You wouldn't have much power in this stroke after the blade passes forward of your body, and it would result in a Kayamedical torso "pretzel".
(3) Do the entire sweep from bow to stern with the power face. This would certainly be an effective way to turn from a standstill, but would stop a lot of forward momentum while under way, which might be desirable in certain whitewater situations but probably not while running turns on a slow twisty creek.
Hi Old Friend.
It is my hope that one day we can be back on the water together and have a real discussion with paddle in hand. Meanwhile I’ll continue with these rather imperfect verbalizations. I agree the Solo Rev Sweep is one of the better ways to pivot a solo hull from a standstill. However, I do not use a palm roll for this maneuver. In this particular maneuver, a palm roll changes little for me. Why do one? Doing a palm roll creates little difference than keeping the thumb up? I roll the grip hand downward and shaft hand back in order to change the dynamic between the paddle and paddler. Turning the thumb downward takes more arm out of the picture and brings the strength of the whole torso into play, which is the whole purpose of this approach. The palm roll has its place, but not for me in this case.
Respectfully,
Pag
such as
If you want to quickly pivot the bow of the canoe toward your on-side without killing forward momentum, use a cross-forward power stroke.
The stern pry is a more powerful correction stroke to turn toward the on-side, and it will slow forward speed some, but if done with good form, keeping the blade well astern the body and close to the hull, it will not kill momentum much.
A third alternative is a draw done in the on-side bow quadrant such as a bow draw or Duffek. This tends to put the brakes on a bit more.
I suppose some would include a cross-bow wedge, or jam as a fourth alternative.
I agree
I usually do the reverse sweep the way you describe. Just seems to work better with less goofing around, although I get the concept of GG method; just not my preferred way of doing it, or teaching it for that matter. In fact I seem to rarely have a need to spin the boat 180 degrees or more from a dead stop, anyway. I still believe it is a useful maneuver to teach, though.
Yes, and all these velocity-keeping …
… methods of turning on-side are potentially useful for my windy situation, which seems to have becalmed.
Kayamedical Torso Pretzel
regarding (2):
I don’t understand how the non-compound solo reverse sweep would be any more pretzely than the non-compound solo forward sweep—am I missing something?
Finally got it…
– Last Updated: Jun-14-14 7:17 AM EST –
It's a compound stroke starting with a reverse sweep and transiting to a bow draw. Yes - do that all the time. On whitewater I would be more likely to use a quick stern pry than a reverse sweep, but it is essentially the same combination of strokes. Not sure why it took me so long to figure that out - it was described in the first couple of responses.
I kept trying to figure out why you would flip your control hand over with the paddle still in the low brace position. It makes perfect sense that you would do that once you move the paddle into high brace position to do the bow draw, but he left that step out of the description.
If I understand what he is describing correctly, I would never call this combination of strokes a "Solo Reverse Sweep".
Terminology & visualization are a bitch
Melenas, what you call the the “non-compound solo forward sweep” is just the normal sweep. It’s done by PULLING (with your shaft hand-arm-shoulder) the POWER face from bow to stern.
What you call the “non-compound solo reverse sweep” would be best exemplified by my #3, which similarly involves PULLING the POWER face but now in reverse from stern to bow.
My #2 involves PUSHING the BACK face all the way from stern to bow. The last half of such a push, from beside your body to the bow, just feels awkward and less powerful to many of us. If you do the “transition” (either way) when the paddle is beside your body, so that your shaft hand-arm-shoulder is now PULLING (drawing) toward the bow, that last half is more powerful. It also puts you immediately into a better position to take the next forward stroke.
Grant says the benefit of his method will show up later on when he gets to paddling in whitewater. It’s because at the end of his bow draw, the paddle will be in an immediate position to take a powerful forward stroke or perhaps a Duffek. If you just push-sweep the back face all the way to the bow, you will end up on a sort of low brace up near the bow, which would be a very unstable and useless paddle position in thrashing-bashing whitewater.
you mention the paddle
"still in the low brace position". You probably just misspoke, due to some previous discussion about the Low Brace. So to eview: In the Solo Rev. Sweep there is no low brace component. The paddle starts with a thumb-up Rev. Sweep then transitions into a thumb-down Bow Draw. HTH
Pag
Clarification
yes, my “non-compound solo forward sweep” is just the normal forward sweep, but by “non-compound solo reverse sweep” I definitely meant #2 (which was the normal reverse sweep for me until this discussion), not #3, which is unfamiliar to me.
My point was that the normal forward sweep is just the reverse of #2. If I kayamedically torso-pretzel in the bow quadrant with #2, as some have claimed, why wouldn’t I similarly kayamedically torso-pretzel in the bow quadrant when doing a normal forward sweep?
So do an experiment
Let’s use the terminology of your normal reverse sweep and the compound (Gordon Grant) reverse sweep.
From the stern to abeam of your body they are the same: a pushing sweep with the back face. So let’s forget that half of the stroke and start from abeam your body.
Put the paddle in the water abeam of your body in two different ways:
(1) Your way, with the back face facing the bow and your grip thumb up. Sweep from abeam to the bow.
(2) Grant’s way, with the power face facing the bow and your grip thumb down. Sweep from abeam to the bow. (This is a sweeping bow draw.)
Which sweep to the the bow was more powerful, invoking more torso muscles? Which leaves your arms less twisted? Which leaves the paddle in the more natural position for the next stroke catch? Grant will say (2) to all these questions. If you are happy with the results of (1), go for it. Frankly, none of these reverse sweeps are something I do often in flat water.
melenas, please believe this
Here is the classic Solo Rev Sweep, described by GG in your reference: Let’s say the paddler is standing still and wishes to turn to his onside. Stack the hands as in a forward stroke, rotate at the waist until facing the onside, drop the grip hand down with the thumb up to a position just outside the gunwale, so that the paddle is horizontal and the Powerface is almost touching the hull near the stern stem and top blade edge just under the water. Begin turning forward at the waist so that you feel pressure on the Backface and the hull begins a pivot to the onside. Sometime before the paddle gets perpendicular to the hull, begin rotating the grip hand thumb toward the body while simultaneously rotating the shaft hand backward with the knuckles toward the forearm to form a upside down figure “L”. This will change the position of the Powerface and Backface and the the Powerface will now be facing forward and feeling pressure. The shaft arm’s elbow should be at your side near the waist and the grip hand should be near the body below the shaft arm’s armpit. Continue rotating at the waist ( this is a classic Bow Draw) until the Powerface nears the Bow. At this point the paddler is set up to lift the grip hand upward, turn the thumb out, and stack the shaft hand under it for a Forward Stroke if desired. I am not aware the GG ever suggested a Palm Roll for this maneuver. It makes no sense to use one in this case. No mechanical advantage is gained by a Palm Roll in this situation except practicing your Palm Roll. I had not seen the thumb up all the way through, taught by anyone. It is much weaker mechanically that the above described approach. HTH
Pagayeur