(1) It seems there is general agreement that this compound stroke is a back face reverse sweep that transitions into a power face bow draw. The transition happens when the paddle is approximately aside (or slightly behind) the paddler.
There are two ways the transition can be done:
(a) Grant says you flip the paddle face in the water while maintaining the top grip. This will cause a some inefficient turbulence, in my opinion.
(b) You can also do the transition via a palm roll, which requires no in-water paddle face flip. To me, this is sleeker and more efficient. However, as pblanc points out, you probably don't want to do a palm roll with a bent or other dedicated face paddle, because you will then have the back side as the power face during the bow draw phase.
That leaves two other possibilities for something that could be called a "reverse sweep".
(2) Do the entire sweep from bow to stern with the back face. You wouldn't have much power in this stroke after the blade passes forward of your body, and it would result in a Kayamedical torso "pretzel".
(3) Do the entire sweep from bow to stern with the power face. This would certainly be an effective way to turn from a standstill, but would stop a lot of forward momentum while under way, which might be desirable in certain whitewater situations but probably not while running turns on a slow twisty creek.
Hi Old Friend. It is my hope that one day we can be back on the water together and have a real discussion with paddle in hand. Meanwhile I’ll continue with these rather imperfect verbalizations. I agree the Solo Rev Sweep is one of the better ways to pivot a solo hull from a standstill. However, I do not use a palm roll for this maneuver. In this particular maneuver, a palm roll changes little for me. Why do one? Doing a palm roll creates little difference than keeping the thumb up? I roll the grip hand downward and shaft hand back in order to change the dynamic between the paddle and paddler. Turning the thumb downward takes more arm out of the picture and brings the strength of the whole torso into play, which is the whole purpose of this approach. The palm roll has its place, but not for me in this case.
such as If you want to quickly pivot the bow of the canoe toward your on-side without killing forward momentum, use a cross-forward power stroke.
The stern pry is a more powerful correction stroke to turn toward the on-side, and it will slow forward speed some, but if done with good form, keeping the blade well astern the body and close to the hull, it will not kill momentum much.
A third alternative is a draw done in the on-side bow quadrant such as a bow draw or Duffek. This tends to put the brakes on a bit more.
I suppose some would include a cross-bow wedge, or jam as a fourth alternative.
I agree I usually do the reverse sweep the way you describe. Just seems to work better with less goofing around, although I get the concept of GG method; just not my preferred way of doing it, or teaching it for that matter. In fact I seem to rarely have a need to spin the boat 180 degrees or more from a dead stop, anyway. I still believe it is a useful maneuver to teach, though.
It's a compound stroke starting with a reverse sweep and transiting to a bow draw. Yes - do that all the time. On whitewater I would be more likely to use a quick stern pry than a reverse sweep, but it is essentially the same combination of strokes. Not sure why it took me so long to figure that out - it was described in the first couple of responses.
I kept trying to figure out why you would flip your control hand over with the paddle still in the low brace position. It makes perfect sense that you would do that once you move the paddle into high brace position to do the bow draw, but he left that step out of the description.
If I understand what he is describing correctly, I would never call this combination of strokes a "Solo Reverse Sweep".
Terminology & visualization are a bitch Melenas, what you call the the “non-compound solo forward sweep” is just the normal sweep. It’s done by PULLING (with your shaft hand-arm-shoulder) the POWER face from bow to stern.
What you call the “non-compound solo reverse sweep” would be best exemplified by my #3, which similarly involves PULLING the POWER face but now in reverse from stern to bow.
My #2 involves PUSHING the BACK face all the way from stern to bow. The last half of such a push, from beside your body to the bow, just feels awkward and less powerful to many of us. If you do the “transition” (either way) when the paddle is beside your body, so that your shaft hand-arm-shoulder is now PULLING (drawing) toward the bow, that last half is more powerful. It also puts you immediately into a better position to take the next forward stroke.
Grant says the benefit of his method will show up later on when he gets to paddling in whitewater. It’s because at the end of his bow draw, the paddle will be in an immediate position to take a powerful forward stroke or perhaps a Duffek. If you just push-sweep the back face all the way to the bow, you will end up on a sort of low brace up near the bow, which would be a very unstable and useless paddle position in thrashing-bashing whitewater.
you mention the paddle "still in the low brace position". You probably just misspoke, due to some previous discussion about the Low Brace. So to eview: In the Solo Rev. Sweep there is no low brace component. The paddle starts with a thumb-up Rev. Sweep then transitions into a thumb-down Bow Draw. HTH
Clarification yes, my “non-compound solo forward sweep” is just the normal forward sweep, but by “non-compound solo reverse sweep” I definitely meant #2 (which was the normal reverse sweep for me until this discussion), not #3, which is unfamiliar to me.
My point was that the normal forward sweep is just the reverse of #2. If I kayamedically torso-pretzel in the bow quadrant with #2, as some have claimed, why wouldn’t I similarly kayamedically torso-pretzel in the bow quadrant when doing a normal forward sweep?
So do an experiment Let’s use the terminology of your normal reverse sweep and the compound (Gordon Grant) reverse sweep.
From the stern to abeam of your body they are the same: a pushing sweep with the back face. So let’s forget that half of the stroke and start from abeam your body.
Put the paddle in the water abeam of your body in two different ways:
(1) Your way, with the back face facing the bow and your grip thumb up. Sweep from abeam to the bow.
(2) Grant’s way, with the power face facing the bow and your grip thumb down. Sweep from abeam to the bow. (This is a sweeping bow draw.)
Which sweep to the the bow was more powerful, invoking more torso muscles? Which leaves your arms less twisted? Which leaves the paddle in the more natural position for the next stroke catch? Grant will say (2) to all these questions. If you are happy with the results of (1), go for it. Frankly, none of these reverse sweeps are something I do often in flat water.
melenas, please believe this Here is the classic Solo Rev Sweep, described by GG in your reference: Let’s say the paddler is standing still and wishes to turn to his onside. Stack the hands as in a forward stroke, rotate at the waist until facing the onside, drop the grip hand down with the thumb up to a position just outside the gunwale, so that the paddle is horizontal and the Powerface is almost touching the hull near the stern stem and top blade edge just under the water. Begin turning forward at the waist so that you feel pressure on the Backface and the hull begins a pivot to the onside. Sometime before the paddle gets perpendicular to the hull, begin rotating the grip hand thumb toward the body while simultaneously rotating the shaft hand backward with the knuckles toward the forearm to form a upside down figure “L”. This will change the position of the Powerface and Backface and the the Powerface will now be facing forward and feeling pressure. The shaft arm’s elbow should be at your side near the waist and the grip hand should be near the body below the shaft arm’s armpit. Continue rotating at the waist ( this is a classic Bow Draw) until the Powerface nears the Bow. At this point the paddler is set up to lift the grip hand upward, turn the thumb out, and stack the shaft hand under it for a Forward Stroke if desired. I am not aware the GG ever suggested a Palm Roll for this maneuver. It makes no sense to use one in this case. No mechanical advantage is gained by a Palm Roll in this situation except practicing your Palm Roll. I had not seen the thumb up all the way through, taught by anyone. It is much weaker mechanically that the above described approach. HTH
Bad choice of words Understand that there is no low brace or high brace involved. I was just trying to comment that not only will the grip hand thumb rotate down, but the grip hand also needs to move up as you start the bow draw. You describe is nicely below.
Difference is whitewater hull Lessels (and anyone else) can turn that very short, highly rockered WW hull with just the first half of a forward or reverse sweep. Not much technique is required to turn a WW hull 180 degrees, not even a heel. Literally, a four year old can do it.
Turning a flatwater touring canoe 180 (or 120) degrees requires a lot more sophisticated technique and properly applied power.
I recall Mike Galt being scoffed at by some instructors at NOC when he demonstrated his solo freestyle routine. “Piffle, piffle, anyone can spin a boat”, sneered they. Until they tried to do it in his Lotus Egret.
As to doing a palm roll for the paddle face transition in the middle of the Grant reverse sweep, no, it’s not required. Nor is it contraindicated. I probably wouldn’t do a palm roll with a T-grip paddle in churning whitewater because it would be a fractional second of lost control. I would do it in flatwater just because I think it’s smoother, causes less blade turbulence, and I just like the aesthetic feel better.
Not bad, just different, terminology Differing terminologies have caused more confusion in canoeing than in just about any endeavor in which I ever have been engaged, whether professionally or as a hobbyist. The traditional Masonists, the bureaucratic ACA, the Pharisaic flatwater freestylers, and the nouveau whitewater squirt-creek-freestyle-rodeo boaters have all created a Tower of Terminological Babel – often redundantly describing the same thing.
The first half of the reverse sweep is akin to a sweeping low brace. Perhaps the blade pitch and hand elevations are slightly different. The transition of the Grant version does go into what can be called a bow draw, a drawing high brace, or a pulling Duffek. Again, different utterers of these terms may have slightly different hand and blade positions in mind.
No argument there… I think the reverse swept/bow draw combination stroke will turn any boat faster than the reverse sweep alone. I’ve just never hear of that combination stroke being called a “solo reverse sweep”.
This thread has gotten away from the OP. The question was about "Canoeing: A Trailside Guide by Gordon Grant and the text about what he terms a Solo Reverse Sweep. What I described above is hopefully an explanation of that specific topic. I see no mention of Palm Roll or the term “Compound” in this section. Although not discussed in this book, I agree that WW canoeists seldom use this and its best use is from a stand still in non WW canoes.