Solo Reverse Sweep

Kayamedical Torso Pretzel
regarding (2):



I don’t understand how the non-compound solo reverse sweep would be any more pretzely than the non-compound solo forward sweep—am I missing something?

Finally got it…

– Last Updated: Jun-14-14 7:17 AM EST –

It's a compound stroke starting with a reverse sweep and transiting to a bow draw. Yes - do that all the time. On whitewater I would be more likely to use a quick stern pry than a reverse sweep, but it is essentially the same combination of strokes. Not sure why it took me so long to figure that out - it was described in the first couple of responses.

I kept trying to figure out why you would flip your control hand over with the paddle still in the low brace position. It makes perfect sense that you would do that once you move the paddle into high brace position to do the bow draw, but he left that step out of the description.

If I understand what he is describing correctly, I would never call this combination of strokes a "Solo Reverse Sweep".

Terminology & visualization are a bitch
Melenas, what you call the the “non-compound solo forward sweep” is just the normal sweep. It’s done by PULLING (with your shaft hand-arm-shoulder) the POWER face from bow to stern.



What you call the “non-compound solo reverse sweep” would be best exemplified by my #3, which similarly involves PULLING the POWER face but now in reverse from stern to bow.



My #2 involves PUSHING the BACK face all the way from stern to bow. The last half of such a push, from beside your body to the bow, just feels awkward and less powerful to many of us. If you do the “transition” (either way) when the paddle is beside your body, so that your shaft hand-arm-shoulder is now PULLING (drawing) toward the bow, that last half is more powerful. It also puts you immediately into a better position to take the next forward stroke.



Grant says the benefit of his method will show up later on when he gets to paddling in whitewater. It’s because at the end of his bow draw, the paddle will be in an immediate position to take a powerful forward stroke or perhaps a Duffek. If you just push-sweep the back face all the way to the bow, you will end up on a sort of low brace up near the bow, which would be a very unstable and useless paddle position in thrashing-bashing whitewater.

you mention the paddle
"still in the low brace position". You probably just misspoke, due to some previous discussion about the Low Brace. So to eview: In the Solo Rev. Sweep there is no low brace component. The paddle starts with a thumb-up Rev. Sweep then transitions into a thumb-down Bow Draw. HTH



Pag

Clarification
yes, my “non-compound solo forward sweep” is just the normal forward sweep, but by “non-compound solo reverse sweep” I definitely meant #2 (which was the normal reverse sweep for me until this discussion), not #3, which is unfamiliar to me.



My point was that the normal forward sweep is just the reverse of #2. If I kayamedically torso-pretzel in the bow quadrant with #2, as some have claimed, why wouldn’t I similarly kayamedically torso-pretzel in the bow quadrant when doing a normal forward sweep?

So do an experiment
Let’s use the terminology of your normal reverse sweep and the compound (Gordon Grant) reverse sweep.



From the stern to abeam of your body they are the same: a pushing sweep with the back face. So let’s forget that half of the stroke and start from abeam your body.



Put the paddle in the water abeam of your body in two different ways:



(1) Your way, with the back face facing the bow and your grip thumb up. Sweep from abeam to the bow.



(2) Grant’s way, with the power face facing the bow and your grip thumb down. Sweep from abeam to the bow. (This is a sweeping bow draw.)



Which sweep to the the bow was more powerful, invoking more torso muscles? Which leaves your arms less twisted? Which leaves the paddle in the more natural position for the next stroke catch? Grant will say (2) to all these questions. If you are happy with the results of (1), go for it. Frankly, none of these reverse sweeps are something I do often in flat water.

melenas, please believe this
Here is the classic Solo Rev Sweep, described by GG in your reference: Let’s say the paddler is standing still and wishes to turn to his onside. Stack the hands as in a forward stroke, rotate at the waist until facing the onside, drop the grip hand down with the thumb up to a position just outside the gunwale, so that the paddle is horizontal and the Powerface is almost touching the hull near the stern stem and top blade edge just under the water. Begin turning forward at the waist so that you feel pressure on the Backface and the hull begins a pivot to the onside. Sometime before the paddle gets perpendicular to the hull, begin rotating the grip hand thumb toward the body while simultaneously rotating the shaft hand backward with the knuckles toward the forearm to form a upside down figure “L”. This will change the position of the Powerface and Backface and the the Powerface will now be facing forward and feeling pressure. The shaft arm’s elbow should be at your side near the waist and the grip hand should be near the body below the shaft arm’s armpit. Continue rotating at the waist ( this is a classic Bow Draw) until the Powerface nears the Bow. At this point the paddler is set up to lift the grip hand upward, turn the thumb out, and stack the shaft hand under it for a Forward Stroke if desired. I am not aware the GG ever suggested a Palm Roll for this maneuver. It makes no sense to use one in this case. No mechanical advantage is gained by a Palm Roll in this situation except practicing your Palm Roll. I had not seen the thumb up all the way through, taught by anyone. It is much weaker mechanically that the above described approach. HTH



Pagayeur

Bad choice of words
Understand that there is no low brace or high brace involved. I was just trying to comment that not only will the grip hand thumb rotate down, but the grip hand also needs to move up as you start the bow draw. You describe is nicely below.

well, that version is taught
although I agree that is has less mechanical advantage.



Here it is demonstrated in a Bruce Lessels video:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XPKv-8VDbw

That is the way I learned
the reverse sweep.

Difference is whitewater hull
Lessels (and anyone else) can turn that very short, highly rockered WW hull with just the first half of a forward or reverse sweep. Not much technique is required to turn a WW hull 180 degrees, not even a heel. Literally, a four year old can do it.



Turning a flatwater touring canoe 180 (or 120) degrees requires a lot more sophisticated technique and properly applied power.



I recall Mike Galt being scoffed at by some instructors at NOC when he demonstrated his solo freestyle routine. “Piffle, piffle, anyone can spin a boat”, sneered they. Until they tried to do it in his Lotus Egret.



As to doing a palm roll for the paddle face transition in the middle of the Grant reverse sweep, no, it’s not required. Nor is it contraindicated. I probably wouldn’t do a palm roll with a T-grip paddle in churning whitewater because it would be a fractional second of lost control. I would do it in flatwater just because I think it’s smoother, causes less blade turbulence, and I just like the aesthetic feel better.

Not bad, just different, terminology
Differing terminologies have caused more confusion in canoeing than in just about any endeavor in which I ever have been engaged, whether professionally or as a hobbyist. The traditional Masonists, the bureaucratic ACA, the Pharisaic flatwater freestylers, and the nouveau whitewater squirt-creek-freestyle-rodeo boaters have all created a Tower of Terminological Babel – often redundantly describing the same thing.



The first half of the reverse sweep is akin to a sweeping low brace. Perhaps the blade pitch and hand elevations are slightly different. The transition of the Grant version does go into what can be called a bow draw, a drawing high brace, or a pulling Duffek. Again, different utterers of these terms may have slightly different hand and blade positions in mind.



Demonstration is better than words.

No argument there…
I think the reverse swept/bow draw combination stroke will turn any boat faster than the reverse sweep alone. I’ve just never hear of that combination stroke being called a “solo reverse sweep”.

no
I haven’t either. I have heard it called the compound reverse sweep.

This thread has gotten away from
the OP. The question was about "Canoeing: A Trailside Guide by Gordon Grant and the text about what he terms a Solo Reverse Sweep. What I described above is hopefully an explanation of that specific topic. I see no mention of Palm Roll or the term “Compound” in this section. Although not discussed in this book, I agree that WW canoeists seldom use this and its best use is from a stand still in non WW canoes.



Pag

“Compound” seems perfectly relevant

– Last Updated: Jun-15-14 1:27 PM EST –

Just because Grant doesn't use the word "compound" doesn't make it off-topic in this discussion. It seems to me that most people use "compound" to describe a stroke in which both power faces get used, so bringing up that point is relevant when explaining to the OP why the stroke he'd previously seen described as a solo reverse sweep is different from the one he mentions here. The stroke being discussed is one that most other people would call a compound solo reverse sweep, even if Grant doesn't differentiate it from the simpler, "non-compound" sweep.

Whitewater canoeists
use that stoke all the time - it just would’d be called a solo reverse sweep. Not sure what it would be called - reverse sweep/bow draw? It’s also not explained very well in the book. You do a better job of explaining it above.

Similar to a christie
The paddler in this Mark Molina video gets so much turn out of her low speed initiation (via a stern pry = reverse draw = inverted draw = pushaway) that she doesn’t need to use much of a forward sweep on the low brace move or the bow draw conclusion move. She uses a palm roll to go into the brace/sweep and another palm roll to go into the dynamic bow draw.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAueM-kjNC4



Patrick Moore says “Christie” is an informal term for a “2 degree inverted axle”. Knock yourself out with his terminology, which I actually think makes the most physics sense of all the Babel-onian terminological schemata.



http://moorecanoeing.com/school/skills_philosophy.htm

The reason I went into a detailed
explanation is, just as you say, it is not explained very well in the article and that I think is the source of a lot of confusion. As a result it has been discussed around many a campfire, since its publication.

I couldn’t agree with you more
I’m just saying the word “Compound” is not used in the article in question and the use of it in this thread has confused some folks.