trust the PFD, but…
I would trust the PFD, but make sure you have the right clothing on them to keep them warm should they get wet, and a dry set to get them in after they get out of the water. Hypothermia is a bigger issues in most cases than drowning.
“Proper” Winter Clothing
– Last Updated: Dec-16-14 10:39 AM EST –
I don't know what you have in mind in terms of "winter clothing", but if the water is cold and you are *properly* dressed for immersion, your clothing would more often than not add a noticeable amount of buoyancy vs. your summer attire. My drysuit with warm fuzzy layers under it traps a lot of air. Thick wetsuits similarly usually increase your buoyancy considerably.
As others said though, probably not a difference to matter for your choice of PFD anyway (other than proper fit over bulkier attire).
Just curious.
What kind of winter clothing do y’all have for canoe camping? Do you plan to use what you wear for cold weather farm work?
one drysuit for everything
I even wear it to the chinese buffet!
clothing
Of course we will be wearing what we have which includes silk, and wool mostly. How many of you can actually afford to buy 5 new drysuits 3 of wich will be outgrown each year. We will go knowing that there is a possibility of getting wet. We will have a plan of action in case we do and about two backup plans for the backup plan. We will minimize the risk by camping with the canoes on small shallow water (40’wide slow stream waist deep) and trying to stay near near the bank whenever possible. If you can’t afford the clothing to keep you from getting wet, then you concentrate on minimizing the risk and being prepared when you do.
Sounds good.
I wasn’t trying to get into your business (ok, I was :)), but when you mentioned farming work clothes I just got the disturbing mental picture of a family on the water wearing Carhartt overalls and quilt lined jackets LOL. I LOVE winter float camping, but a very nice but very hardheaded friend who sometimes joins me brought his son along on one particularly cold trip last winter and the little guy just wasn’t properly attired. He was miserable and I was worried sick about him, hence my concern. Sounds like you’ve got it covered though.
sorry
I did not mean to sound cross, but by the direction of other posts I was sure you were going to say that I must have a drysuit before paddling. Yes, I would like to have 5 - but until we are going canoeing every weekend in the winter, or wanting to float some bigger water, I just can’t justify spending that kind of cash. Thank you very much for the concern of our safety though, it is much appreciated.
Didn’t sound cross to me at all,
only sensible. Dry suits are 'spensive, especially ones that won’t fit in a year or two! They’re mighty nice to have but aren’t always worth the cost IMO, and there’s no reason a lack thereof should keep one off the water provided adequate precautions are taken. Have fun out there!
My experience
When not choosing to wear my drysuit in cold weather I wear military surplus wool over poly base layer. I have swum with this on in cold water and it defiantly keeps one warmer than no wool. Floating and swimming wasn’t a problem, but climbing back in the boat or onto shore is. You gain lots of weight out of the water!
Turtle
Um - minor point
Your original post did not mention trying to outfit a literally growing family.
In fact there are not dry suit sizes for kids that I know of, until they get to adult size. Maybe in the UK but not on this side of the pond.
But there is neoprene in kids sizes and wind blocking layers. I am unclear on what your drying options would be - neo doesn’t dry out easily once wet if things are damp and chilly - but then again neither do some of the traditional backup matreials like wool.
Supernova comes in youth size.
I know it’s not a full drysuit. Little Deuce has an old non-breathable Kokatat drysuit that she’s never worn and I’ve seen youth sizes on ebay. Might have been from across the pond as you mentioned. Funny story about getting wet in, ummm, nondrywear. A few years ago I fell out of my boat on the Current river in Missouri in February. I was sitting on a table strapped across the front of my raft and a buddy was rowing. I was a bit too eager to answer the call of nature and got too close to the end of the table and slid off into the water. I was wearing cheap polypro and fleece. Wasn’t fun but I quickly changed into dry clothes and was fine.
poly
Polypro and fleece are great things. I wear them a lot. But from personal experiences, they do nothing to keep you warm in cold water like wool does. I find the scratchy nasty millitary surplus wool stuff does much better than the nice feeling marino kind. This is why I wear a thin base layer under the scratchy stuff.
Turtle
original post
– Last Updated: Dec-17-14 3:47 PM EST –
The original post was more concerned with how PFD's are rated. My thoughts at the time were that I'm adding weight with winter clothes and boots but not changing my volume much. Somewhere along the way, PFD makers must have determined what the average density of an adult was, and that an additional 15lbs of boyant force would keep one afloat. Childrens PDF's list a weight and this was what was scaring me a little.
The direction has turned a little more toward clothing and that's ok. As for the question about drying out, we will have dry changes of clothes. I do like wool, and wear it everyday during the winter. I don't think it's magic and will keep me as warm when wet as when it is dry, but in my experience, you can remove a soppy wet wool sweater, shake nearly all the water from it, and put back on a damp wool sweater which is better than nothing. Yes it would be nice not to get wet in the first place and I hope that we don't.
Turtle- I have a army surplus one that I like as well, high colar, thin, and close fitting. I wear it over silk turtle neck base. We try to hit the 2nd hand stores for sweaters. I like to buy large and then felt them which seems to block wind better.
So you’ve ordered five dry suits then?
Sorry, couldn’t resist!
Six-
Just in case one developes a hole.
people do all sorts of things-
– Last Updated: Dec-18-14 6:40 AM EST –
when it comes to boating. I don't judge but you are asking for advice and I'm gonna tell you what you don't want to hear. If I was takin' kids out in the winter on the water I would want at least a wetsuit on them and a drysuit would be better. If I couldn't do that I wouldn't take them. I live in wv and the water temps are typically in the 40s and 50s- swimming is unpleasant in the winter. Respect the water. Your 5x more likely to die in cold water so you have to plan accordingly.
Minimizing your risk by boating a smaller stream and staying near shore is sensible. Taking children out who aren't properly clothed for the conditions isn't sensible. If you can't afford at least wetsuits for the kiddies you've got no business takin' them out, regardless of how much you want to paddle. Think of the kiddies first. Boating in the winter can be great fun, but it can be dangerous as well.
Kocho had it right about wetsuits and drysuits adding flotation. You float higher. Your riding higher out of the water and in a cold water scenario that is a very good thing.
So do what you want. That's is one of the great things about this sport. You get to make your own decisions and live them. When kids or seniors are involved, I'm suggesting we hold ourselves to a higher standard and put their safety first.
Note on wool
I credit wool with keeping me alive once when I was too young and stupid to realize about hypothermia. I climbed into a wet, ancient Boy Scout wool sleeping bag in the stage where teeth are chattering, whole body is shaking and brain is no longer working worth a darn. I came out again several hours later still wet and exhausted beyond belief.
But I came out. In synthetics that may not have happened. No one was present to check on me.
The old WW guys, I worked with one, before the days of the clothing we have now wore wool sweaters, wool pants, wool hats and given the environment you can be assured were wet. One of the really spiffy finds was a pair of lineman’s leather boots. With wool socks underneath.
Wool is heavy and generally not something anyone would prefer to swim in, and the really good stuff smells like last week’s garbage if it stays wet long enough. But it has some pretty stupendous properties too.
Sounds like he’s sufficiently prepared.
I realize opinions vary but under the circumstances it sounds to me like he has everything pretty well in hand. Under those circumstances a swim in cold water with cold air temps would be absolutely miserable but manageable. He’s stated that he’ll have backup dry clothes handy for them all and backups to those and the clothes he has for them are appropriate. Getting on the water in any weather is a calculated risk and all one can do is prepare to the extent one is able. It’s a bit extreme to impune his judgment just because he can’t drop $500 to $5000 on wet or dry suits in order to take his kids float camping on a class 0 stream.
Salvation Army
I just visited my local thrift store. One could outfit in wool from there for app 15$ per person.
Turtle
not characteristic of a typical class I
– Last Updated: Dec-19-14 6:16 PM EST –
stream when you figure in cold water temps. That's a game changer in my book. Tipping over a boat/canoe with a family on board in winter without proper immersion wear sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. kyed sounds like a great soul but I'm not gonna tell someone its safe to do something I believe is a bit risky. Ultimately, we all make that decision for ourselves, unless your a minor depending upon adult to make safe decisions for ya.
Dry clothes properly stored will help. Carrying a sleeping bag for rewarming is another trick they can employ since they will already have camping gear but none of that makes it okay during the initial immersion phase if they swim.
So kyed if your serious about this, have the family take a little swim test wearin' their wool sweaters, pants, and shoes on, at the put in. If everyone is okay with it then I say its a go.
I just can't imagine wanting to dress a kid up in heavy wool garb and then expect them to swim to shore in Dec. or Feb. I think OP wants to know if its safe to do so. I don't think it is but its just one opinion.
I'm always preachin' the environment- meaning you need to have the skill set and materials to match where you are on any given day. Its not about ratings, its about understanding that in this situation cold water demands respect. If your not going to dress for immersion or do it only partially, then you take your chances- which could be miniscule or huge depending on your skill level and your ability to not make any more mistakes.
I believe the Op is wanting to know if its okay to throw some wool on and take the family out for a spin in the family canoe in the winter. That's sketchy in my play book. The op has options- they can postpone until warmer water later in the year, drive somewhere warmer to paddle, invest in drysuits and wetsuits, or go ahead and chance it.
Sometimes it sucks being a responsible adult. I'm as cheap as they come, but never asked my kids to go swimmin' in winter wearin' a bunch of wool. Maybe I just needed to tell them to "man up" and that its part of character building.
I myself have left my wool pants, and wool sweaters (which were sandwiched between two paddlin' jackets) days in my rear view mirror. Now I'm wearin' one of my farmer john wetsuits, or my semi drysuit, or full drysuit, or my neoprene pants and drytop.
kyed I'll be glad to go paddlin' with ya sometime. We're neighbors. Just try keepin' your brood alive until we get a chance to do it.
You got Ollies in your neck of the woods? sometimes they sell wetsuits dirt cheap.
some links to help ya out
http://www.zappos.com/kids-wetsuits?gclid=CJi4wO-c08ICFRCLaQodz48Aww
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=kids+wetsuits+for+swimming&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=31541582357&hvpos=1t3&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=476846486160411552&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_5gk5jv1738_b
http://www.wetsuitwearhouse.com/wetsuits/category/kids-juniors-wetsuits.html
http://www.diverightinscuba.com/catalog/exposure-gear/wetsuits-c-116/wetsuitsyouth-c-116-288.html?gclid=CKHuloie08ICFQkIaQodrxYA2w