Forth Smith?
What are you doing on Pnet? (Just kidding Pnetters :)) You need to: 1. Join and post on the Arkansas Canoe Club message board, 2. Join the club (you’d be in the River Valley chapter) and ask your fellow members for help with boat selection, loaners/demos, trips to join and anything else you can think of and 3. Check with my buddies at Ozark Mountain Trading Company in Garfield for boats.
Thanks
Thanks, I will look into it. Ya, OTMC is the kayak shop you will see me refer to in all my posts as it is the only one I have been to multiple times. I went up last Saturday and bought a Tsunami 145 from them, rather in the process of buying.
While they do offer amazing deals and do know all about the boats they don’t seem to have a ton of knowledge on techniques or at least they don’t offer them freely.
In the same “boat”…
Silvercobra, I’m glad you started this thread. I’m nearly in the same boat as you (so to speak) and will be enthusiastically watching all replies.
I currently have a short, fat rec kayak that I have quickly outgrown. I was planning to upgrade to a real sea/touring kayak this year. To stay on the water and learn some techniques, I am taking an intro to whitewater kayaking course over the winter. I didn’t sign up for this class because I had any real interest in WW paddling, but mostly to learn safety and advanced paddling techniques. However, after only my first class, I have to admit that I am hooked on WW! I was amazed and stoked at how maneuverable and fun these WW kayaks were. I had never paddled or even sat in a WW boat before. I was having a blast playing around in the pool, testing my limits, pushing the envelope, and getting thoroughly soaked in the process. Just one class into a 9-week course, and I’ve already decided that I want to get a WW boat.
However, my issue is that there isn’t any serious WW near me, and most of my regular paddling will still be on flatwater. I want a boat that I can take into WW and have fun playing around in it, but won’t be a total pig to paddle in my local flatwater (at least not any more of a pig than my current bathtub of a rec boat).
I’ve been talking with and emailing the instructor of my WW course. He’s a great guy who is very knowledgeable and has been more than helpful with all of my questions. I have joined the WW club that he is the president of. After explaining to him my current situation, my usual paddling environment, and my desire to get into WW, he provided some helpful advice and some recommendations.
He said that with my usual type of paddling, he would recommend that I look at river runners. Given that I will still be doing a lot of flatwater paddling, he said that if it were him making the decision, he would 100% go with a LL Remix XP kayak. He gave me a few others that he would recommend, too, and they were more true WW river runners than a crossover, but he said he’d definitely recommend I look into the Remix XP.
I’ve been reading up on a lot of articles and reviews and watching tons of videos on the Remix XP series. It really does look like it will fit the bill for my purposes. Sure, I would have to make some compromises on its performance in both flatwater paddling situations and WW, alike, but that’s unfortunately the nature of the beast for me. I can only have one boat. I cannot have a fleet of kayaks from which to choose depending on the style of paddling du jour. So, I have to compromise and choose one kayak that will best meet my needs across the board.
Right now, I’m leaning towards the LL Remix XP9. My weight and height (175lb and 6’) will be at the higher end of the XP9’s ideal range, but still within the range. I’d consider the XP10, but it has considerably more volume, and I’d rather stick with a tighter-fitting boat for when I do get out in WW.
I’d prefer to purchase used in hopes of getting a good deal, but my instructor warned me that I might have to be really patient to find a Remix XP on the used market. He said they are very well liked boats, and people have a tendency to hold onto them and not want to get rid of them. So, I have my radar on and will keep an eye out for anything else that pops up.
The other scenario that I have possibly boiling up in the back of my mind is if I just want to say screw it and go with a straight WW boat rather than a crossover. I had so much fun in my class that I can see myself really getting into WW. Even if most of my regular paddling is on my local flatwater, maybe I’ll have more fun just playing around in the water rather than trying to paddle for long, straight distances. So, I’m also keeping an eye out for good deals on a true river runner since it appears those will probably be easier to find on the used market. I’m keen on the LL Remix series (59, 69, 79) but am also eyeing the Jackson Fun, Zen, and Hero series.
Of course, I will try out different styles of WW boats in my class to see what I like and don’t like. Also, since I joined the WW club, I should have that resource available to try different products, as well. The club hosts open pool sessions at several local schools and recreation centers. So, I should have opportunities to see/try different styles of boats there, too. But I will definitely keep returning to this thread to see what everyone else has for recommendations and advice. Thanks.
If you’re serious about getting into WW
– Last Updated: Jan-15-15 6:07 PM EST –
then go for the river runner. But I wouldn't hold out hope that you're going to find it enjoyable to paddle on flatwater. I think even the Remix XPs would become tedious to paddle for long stretches on flatwater.
You don't need a "fleet" of kayaks, but even among the folks I know who paddle WW exclusively, I can't think of a single one who, after paddling for at least a couple of years, has managed to limit themselves to just one boat. Is your one-boat limitation due to storage or financial reasons (or both)?
Crossover
I was considering a crossover boat when I first started looking for a boat because I thought it would be “good enough” for both worlds. From what was said a crossover is primarily designed for WW and the skeg just makes the flat water a little less miserable.
I decided I see more flat water than WW so I picked up a 14foot touring boat. I can take my touring boat on some rapids but taking a WW boat on flat water would be worse to me.
I’m still not really sure where the cross over boats fit in, it seems like anyone in my situation would be better off with a touring boat and anyone seeing more WW than I am would be better off with a creeker or river runner.
Good news is my friend is most likely going to get a Katana or some crossover so I can comment later this year after I paddle his quite a bit.
If you missed my previous threads they received some excellent comments and advice:
http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=1739982
http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=1742837
Boat limitation…
The boat limitation is due to storage issues and SAF (Spousal Approval Factor). I already have a 17’ canoe and my 10’ rec kayak that I can barely fit in my garage. I have no room for any more boats. If I want to upgrade my kayak, I have to replace one of my current boats. I’d rather replace the rec kayak because I want to keep the canoe for family fun on the water.
SAF is another strong consideration I always have to manage. My wife is pretty tired of my hobby OCD. It annoys her to no end, and I really don’t want to push the envelope too far for fear of pushing her over an edge from which I cannot recover. While I may be obsessed with kayaking at the moment, she’s more important to me than any boat. To soothe relations, I promised to make my kayak upgrade as close to a zero-sum game as possible. I will replace my current boat with the new kayak so there will be no increase in gear/equipment. Also, I will sell gear/equipment from other hobbies to fund the purchase of my new kayak. So, there will be a net effect of zero on our family finances.
I am in the tough position of determining what type of paddling most interests me and then finding a single kayak that best meets any and all compromises I have to make. Right now, my interests are swinging more towards whitewater since I am taking a WW class. I am having LOTS of fun with the WW boats in the class and really want to get my own WW kayak. However, I know that WW paddling opportunities are few and far between where I live. Most of my regular paddling will be on a slow-moving river that I live near.
So, I’m stuck with the choice of either:
A). Completely foregoing the idea of WW paddling and putting all my eggs into the touring kayak basket. This option will best suit the majority of my current style of paddling, but I may always regret not being able to have fun playing in WW.
Or
B). Decide to completely change my paddling style and go with a WW boat. I’d get out into actual WW conditions less frequently, and would have to spend more time planning and patiently waiting for the few WW trips I could go on. Knowing that WW boats are a pain to paddle on flatwater for any length of time, I’d have to change my regular weekend outings from straight, long-distance paddling on my local river to more stationary “playing” around on my local river (e.g. sessions focusing more on playing with rolls, bracing, edging, and just building my skills for the eventual WW trips). There’s a Class II whitewater park on the Fox River (my local river), but it’s an hour+ drive to get there in good traffic. So, I could get some actual WW time on occasion, but my regular paddling would still be further upstream in slow-moving water.
I’ve been looking at the crossover kayaks like the LL Remix XPs, but the more I look at them, the more I waffle on the idea of getting a boat that really doesn’t excel in either WW or flatwater. They kind of give you just enough of each discipline to perform the bare basics, and that doesn’t sound like much fun.
Silvercobra, I read through all your other threads. It sounds very much like we are trying to make some of the same decisions. So, I will continue to follow your threads and see what others have to say. Fortunately for you, it sounds like you at least have the luxury of being able to get separate boats for the different types of paddling you want to do. Unfortunately for me, I’m stuck with having to find one boat that I hope will keep me mostly happy.
crossover kayaks
– Last Updated: Jan-16-15 10:12 AM EST –
Most of the newer crossover kayak designs are really very capable on whitewater. I know 2 people who have used the Pyranha Fusion on Class IV water quite a bit. Some very experienced whitewater kayakers would be reluctant to run very difficult (Class IV+ - V) in these due to concerns about the hatch cover blowing off or the skeg breaking, but these concerns won't be an issue for the type of whitewater you will be running initially. You can also put a float bag in the back of a crossover for safety if the hatch cover does come off.
Crossover designs are typically more river runner designs. They are not designed for acrobatic maneuvers like flat spins, cartwheels, loops etc. but again you aren't going to be doing that, at least initially.
With all due respect to your instructor, the LL XPs would be at the bottom of my list if I were shopping for a crossover boat. I have paddled both the XP9 and XP10. They are capable whitewater boats but they plow water pretty badly on the flats and I would not care to paddle them any distance on flat water. I have paddled the Pyranha Fusion and like its flat water performance much better. Although I have not paddled either the Wave Sport Ethos or the Dagger Katana, I have looked closely at the hulls of both and spoke to a couple of folks who have owned them. It looks to me as if the Katana might have the best flat water performance of the whole bunch.
You could also consider an old school river runner kayak if you came across one in good condition. If you look at the length/width ratios of some of these old timers (Dagger Crossfire, Dagger Response, Dagger Animas, Dagger AQII, Perception Pirouette, Prijon T Canyon, Prijon T Slalom, etc) you will find they are more favorable than the new crossover boats. But they lack hatches, skegs, and dry storage of course.
weakening plastic
look for oil-canning under the seat, as that causes weak points in the plastic. and plastic wears off every time you hit a rock, and eventually the hull gets thin, especially under the seat where impacts cause the greatest forces. eventually, it’ll split. if you can find a used boat that was used just in class II-III, especially by a lighter paddler, it’s probably ok to go used. but a used creek boat that was used regularly in class IV-V had better be cheap to consider, and plan on replacing it sooner rather than later.
Overthinking - Just Do It
A couple of good pieces of advice here. Don’t buy a creeker from a class V WW dog.
But somebody who is selling a river runner or playboat because they don’t get out much… probably just fine Go ahead and buy a boat that fits you used for $300-$400 and go paddling. You can find boats like an old Necky Jive that are still in good shape and would be fine.
The 9 Ft Remix would be fine for doing some flatwater paddling and entry level river running.
Canoe
I understand where you are coming from. You are definitely in the same area I started out in but I had a different way out then you do.
I would definitely paddle anything you are considering. Since it is kind of hard to tell how a boat will handle in rapids while on flat water you could definitely test out how well it paddles on flat water. I think I paddled the remix 9 and 10 and to me it felt worse on flatwater than my cheapo rec boat. That is why I heavily started leaning towards a touring boat.
You could always get one of the longer crossover boats in the 12 foot range then see if you could talk your wife into letting you get an 8-10 foot play boat to use in bigger WW. Those play boats are pretty small.
How often do you go out in your canoe? Might be better to sell it and get a good touring boat then just rent a canoe or small boat to take the family out. Then you could get an all WW boat and be set, haha.
From the responses I got though I believe you can take some pretty good rapids in a short touring boat which is why I picked that as my “in between” boat.
Agree
I agree with this. Getting some information is great and I feel like I will really enjoy my purchase (14.5 foot boat) but if it doesn’t work out oh well. Kayaks hold their value pretty well so I can re-sell the boat and get soemthing else.
You can only read so much and experience will have to fill in the rest.
Hmm
I think silvercobra might be on to something. I’m normally loathe to recommend playboats to beginning WW kayakers, but if your only realistic access to WW is a Class II WW park, it might not be a bad way to go. If you went this route, I’d recommend something like the Jackson Fun series, which is a bit of a playboat/river runner hybrid, but is plenty capable of doing rodeo moves (actually easier for learning the initial skills like surfing and flatspinning).
The biggest downside is that, depending on your personal aptitude for WW kayaking, starting in a smaller boat might make the initial learning curve a bit steeper. On the other hand, you’ll have more skills that you can practice on flatwater. Plus, maybe your better half will be more amenable to a two boat solution if it involves one longer boat and a much smaller WW boat.
It’s nice there are lots of choices
– Last Updated: Jan-16-15 5:08 PM EST –
to pick from: ww playboats, river runners, creekers, hybrids/crossovers and touring boats. Modern ww boats usually have amped up outfitting- thick closed cell walls, hip pads, bulkheads or sturdy foot pegs,and heavier construction overall.
Many folks take many different kinds of boats down ww but when you think about safety, having a boat made by a ww manufacturer is almost always safer than using a touring boat designed for flat water.
Most of the "crossovers" are sold by ww kayak companies and have most of the ww features, as well as a skeg and overnight capability.
Be sure to check out the reviews on this website. Especially if your elect to not demo and are considering buying something new. The most critical reviews are often the best for learning about a specific boat.
I don't think there's anything wrong with getting a "first" boat cheap and then figuring out what you want once you've gained some seat time.
Some boats become like a trusted friend. You know how they'll behave before you even ask the question. Those are the boats you keep a long time. Others are like a one and done date. Paddling.net is the Eharmony of boats. Some are more com-paddle-able than others.
Haha
Thanks for the info.
Those last few sentences got more and more cheesy but it was funny.
Tsunami 145? HUGE
The 145 is huge for someone at your weight. You will be swimming in it. It was my first sea kayak and, while I liked it, I quickly outgrew it. Big cockpit, high deck, wide. I think you will enjoy it a lot initially, but if you want to learn more skills, you will soon be looking for something else, like a Zephyr 15.5 or Tempest 165 (you will be fine barefoot in it with the seat moved back).
Storage
You have a 17’ Canoe - You should be able to store a WW kayak and/or a REC kayak inside with out too much trouble. Then you can get a 14’ - 15’ kayak for the flat water.
Another option is one that I haven’t used, but I have friends that have … Buy the boat and store it at a friends. When the Significant Other notices it somewhat later you can say “Oh that one … we’ve had that for a couple of years now.”
I do understand that there may be a cost for purchasing gear without approval from the finance committee. When I went looking for gunwales and came home with some … attached to a new canoe furniture was purchased shortly there after.
To
Robbw. What part of the country are you in ? Most areas that have WW, have groups of paddlers to get together with. As far as the Remix XP9 goes,a little more detail on how I use mine. I paddled mine for 2 years, & am getting a new one this year. (Had to sell at the time-not cause of the boat) My scenario: Mostly paddle WW rivers class I-IV with short stretches of flat water in between rapids sections. Usually day trips, but some overnights-storage comes in handy. Hatch has NEVER come off when I have been upside down. Yes, it plows at top speed in flat water. I just relax, and paddle easy knowing I can’t go any faster. For just a mile or two of flat water in a day, who cares? On HUGE lakes, or long flat water trips-not so good. Friends with rec boats will whiz by you. But That’s what I have a rec boat for. On WW, handles like my Stomper, but just a little longer so technical turns are just a little more demanding. Overall, it’s the most comfortable boat I’ve paddled. The outfitting is great. Snap Dragon makes a skirt which fits perfectly. I’m 6’ 175 Lbs, size 11 feet. Plenty of room, but can adjust outfitting so your as snug as you want to be. (for rolling) I’ll just put it this way, I’m getting another one for the majority of MY type of paddling.
Yep
Ya, I know it is very large for my weight, but with my options it is limited. That is the max length I wanted and my size 13 feet with long legs makes the kayak around the 14 foot range a select few.
If I get a chance to try the other kayaks I was looking at I might re-sell this one and go for those but it is doubtful they will turn up.
When I get my full blown sea/touring kayak it will be expensive and in the 17-18 foot range, haha.
Chicagoland area…
I’m in the far west suburbs of Chicago. There’s a WW park on the Fox River about an hour’s drive south of my location on the Fox. There’s the Vermillion River a couple hours drive south of me. There is a WW club I joined on my first day of class (Chicago Whitewater Association). They have several trips they go on throughout the year. So, I should have a few trips I can plan on joining throughout the year. There are several low-head dams on the Fox River. I usually put in just above one and paddle upstream and back for my usual weekend paddling. The tailwaters still have some turbulence and look like they could still provide a little bit of fun well downstream of any danger zone.
Now that I know I’m stoked about WW and want to get a boat I can take out into WW, I need to make sure I pay special attention to all the different boats they have at my class and try out several of them to see what I like. I’m just bummed that there’s no class this upcoming week because of MLK Day. Having to wait longer to jump back into the boats and test them out is really trying my patience!
The more I think about it and read up on different boats and watch videos, I’m thinking I may want to get a true WW boat instead of a crossover. IDK, I hate being indecisive.
St. Francis
You need to come on down to Missouri and become familiar with the St Francis River near Fredericktown, MO.
The Missouri Whitewater Association does a spring whitewater paddling clinic on the Saint if you are interested. Their website is easy to find.