I was working in the outdoor gear biz in the mid 1970’s when Goretex first began to be used in such products so I was among the salespeople who went to a lot of training sessions by manufacturers on how the material works (having also been a polymer chemistry lab tech working with PTFE helped my understanding of the material). The microporous PTFE (teflon) film that “breathes” only does so because vapor pressure causes molecular moisture to be forced through the openings but they are too small to allow liquid water to pass through. So it works best when there is a space between your body and the fabric where there is a vapor pressure space, as in a tent, a bivy sack or a loose-fitting shell garment. Goretex is not that effective in footwear because it has such close contact with the skin and vapor transfer is also blocked by the outer layers of the footwear so moisture will tend to condense anyway and your skin and any material between skin and the Goretex will become and stay damp. Lining boots with Goretex is basically a waste of material. And I suspect Goretex socks on drysuits are a similar exercise in futility. I would choose either neoprene or coated nylon instead. The outer layers of Goretex “sandwich” are treated with DWR to prevent “wet out”, which is saturation of the material (like nylon or polyester) which would block the pass-through of moisture vapor. The DWR makes the moisture bead on the surface instead of soaking it. Again, no point in using it on socks, especially if they are going to be inside some kind of boots or protective shoes…
You’re doing the right thing with the liner sock and wool oversocks. The liners are wicking skin moisture to the wool and wool maintains its loft even when soaked so it will continue to act as insulation. Back in the years before Goretex when I did a lot of winter backpacking I used to wear poly wicking liners under wool ragg socks, then pull plastic bread bags over each foot before sticking them in my waterproofed leather hiking boots. My feet would stay very warm and my skin would be dry, while the wool socks would be damp at the end of the day and I would switch to a dry pair of socks and mukluk shells for camp footwear. I’d place the damp wool sox between my inner and outer sleeping bags and my body heat radiating would usually dry them pretty well overnight.
I’ve always heard the same thing that Willowleaf said, and it makes sense to me, that the only advantage to water beading up on the outside surface is that it creates “bare, dry space” on the fabric through which gaseous water can pass, since complete coverage of the outer surface by water pretty much stops gaseous water from exiting. I think the same thing happens with Goretex jackets and pants in the winter when the fabric gets thickly coated on the inside with frost (that happens to me during winter hikes if the weather is cold, but people say that basic old-style, non-waterproof windshell materials don’t have that problem). Anyway, for any particular surface that is always tightly covered, as is the case with drysuit booties (socks), the surface treatment would be pointless and the lack of water beading is nothing to worry about.
Even if your shoes are breathable, that’s a far cry from being well-ventilated. Even a single layer of breathable fabric doesn’t let gaseous moisture escape very quickly, so two layers of breathable fabric (drysuit booties with shoes over the top) would probably act as if “pretty well sealed”.
For what it’s worth, my underclothes get quite damp inside a drysuit, especially my feet (covered by boots) and the area covered by my PFD.
Agree with above two posters. There is no way for moisture to escape if you are wearing booties or shoes. When the temp dips below freezing for hiking we switch to a parka made with tightly woven Egyptian cotton, with a felted wool sweater underneath… That allows for good ventilation yet stays warm. Of course we have Gore Tex too but at about 15 degrees the jacket just ices up and the pores stop working
If you are concerned about warmth. there are felted socks or boot liners that due to the felting are very warm and water repellent. Feet still sweat though.
@Willowleaf. A steel-trap mind you have. You remember that stuff from the 1970s and when I grocery shop on my lunch hour, I have to stick my car keys in the grocery bag stashed in the office refrigerator so I won’t forget to take the groceries home.
Chalking it up to condensation. Thanks for the always super mentorship here. Still plan to play with switching the base layer to merino wool sock and the Mysterioso sock on top of that just to satisfy my own curiosity. Whether that happens this weekend depends on wind and snow forecast, which looks rather nasty right now.
I have a question about dry suits that is along the lines of this discussion. I currently have a Kokatat wet suit. About 5-6 years ago I bought a Kokatat Super Nova semi-dry suit for whitewater rafting, but sold it because I wasn’t using it. I sure wish I had kept it now that I’m paddling. At some point I might want to get a semi-dry suit again. The Kokatat Super Nova vs the Gortex paddling suit. The Super Nova is Kokatat’s Tropos breathable fabric and costs about $200-300 less. I don’t recall the Super Nova being super sweaty, but I didn’t wear it a ton of times. After reading the posts above about the limitations on breathability, even with Gortex, I wonder if the Gortex suit would be worth the extra cost?
As for semi-dry vs dry…I’m ok with the neo neck instead of a latex neck. I did wear the Super Nova semi-dry suit during a rescue class, and swam a rapid in it. The small amount of water leakage at the neck was minimal and worth the comfort over latex.
Check out the video that Marshall of The River Connection posted on the Kokatat GoreTex Surge at TRC’s FB site: https://www.facebook.com/theriverconnection/
I had tried on the Surge two-piece suit and liked it (especially that wonderful neo neck). Also love the SwitchZip and ability to use the top as a separate. After doing a lot of thinking, ultimately decided to go with the Kokatat Radius. It’s certainly earning its keep so far and the only “breathability” issue I’ve had is damp outer layer socks when I started paddling in 32F air temps and under my PFD, which happens even in warm weather without a dry suit. What I especially like about GoreTex is that it cuts the wind and that you’re not wet and clammy all over as with a wet suit. I think what really sold me on a dry suit was having dry feet at the end of the day.
Having owned Kokatat paddle clothing in both Goretex and Tropos I think the major differences are durability and breathability (the GT is superior in both, you get what you pay for). The Goretex laminates they use in the costlier suits are a heavier gauge of nylon and the membrane transpires a bit better. Though they did claim that Tropos T3 was an improvement over the original and I think my Tropos semi dry top was the original type, and it was noticeably less breathable so products made more recently may be a bit better. Anyway, they are phasing out Tropos now for Hydrus 3L fabric that they use in the Meridian suits. From what I have heard Hydrus 3L is basically the same as Tropos. But that might mean some pending discounts on existing stock of the Tropos stuff – just sayin’. …
Thanks folks. I was going to ask about the Switch Zip suits also. The biggest negative about my old suit was the butt zipper. Zipping & unzipping that thing to pee was not super fun. I see they have the Idol Switch Zip semi-dry paddle suit in Gortex with the Neo collar. Still kind of pricey at $800. I will probably get more & more into spring & fall paddling at Lake Powell, and down to Mohave & Havasu, and summer paddling at Yellowstone & Glacier, so the wet suit + paddling pants & jacket vs semi-dry paddling suit will probably need to be re-visited in the coming year.
The SwitchZip is wonderful. I had also tried an Expedition suit with the rear zipper. Hated it. Had that been my only choice, I would have stuck with a wet suit. Neat thing with the two-piece is that you can wear the top as a separate paddling jacket, which I did on a cold windy day in July. Also have used the pants as separate waders. I like things that multi-task.
Another consideration for choosing between a Kokatat suit in gore tex vs something else is the warrantee. The tropos warrantee is only for two years. The GT stuff is “reasonable lifetime”. I just had my first Expedition suit replaced after 11 years of hard use due to some de-lamination/leaking. No charge and no questions asked. $1200 is a lot for 1 great suit but is a good deal for two. I had a tropos paddling jacket and it did not breathe very well at all.
I am not sure, but I think the Goretex version has a better neoprene neck gasket. I have a Tropos padding suit, and the neck gasket seems thin and uses a flap with velcro to help seal better. I have a semi-dry top from Kokatat in Goretex and it has a thicker neoprene neck gasket and uses a draw string the seal tighter (when you need it - generally I don’t). That thicker neoprene neck with drawstring seals much better for me. I assume the Goretex paddling suit has the same neck gasket, and wish that I had gotten that rather than Tropos.
Peter’s recollection is correct. The Surge Paddling suit has the thicker Neo cinch able turtleneck.
See you on the water,
Marshall
The Connection, Inc.
Hyde Park, NY
www.the-river-connection.com
fb.me/theriverconnection
Thanks. I looked at the descriptions on Kayak Academy website, and I do see the difference now. Gortex suits call it a neo cinch collar and Super Nova calls it an APT, adjustable punch through collar. I never noticed the difference before.
If I save up for a suit, I think I would go for the Surge in order to get the Switch Zip. It looks so much more user friendly for a gal than the butt zipper. Price on the Surge is $850.
Tried the GoreTex ironing tip suggested by Marshall. It does make the sock material feel crisper but unsure when I’ll get to do a water test as the local inland lakes are now ice covered. Going to have to be a sunny and calm day before I’ll chance Lake Michigan in the winter.
On a positive note, base layers are are nice to wear when blowing out the drive so some of my gear will get used.
You can reduce the amount of moisture by using an antiperspirant on the soles of your feet. Learned that trick many years ago hiking mountains all day in warm weather.
That is a problem for a lot of people – we all vary in how much our extremities perspire. and people whose feet sweat a lot are at much higher risk not just for discomfort from cold but from frostbite. My boyfriend in 1976, a very accomplished climber and alpine mountaineer, ended up stranded overnight on a ledge just below the summit of Aconcagua in the Andes, the highest peak outside the Himalayas. He was with another friend of mine who was wearing single thickness boots and gaiters. My BF had better high-tech double insulated boots, but he was a heavy sweat-er. His liners and wool socks became soaked and frozen. They both suffered from frostbite, but the guy with dry feet only had some skin loss and scarring on one big toe but the BF ended up being hospitalized for 3 months while we watched every one of his toes die and literally fall off or be amputated above the first joints. He did recover (and continued to climb and ski) but can never wear flip flops again. Now known (but only to close friends) as “No-Toes”. At least in kayaking you won’t get frostbite (unless you are stranded ashore in sub freezing conditions).
It’s interesting to hear that antiperspirant can help with this wet feet situation. I wish it would help with my own issues – I barely sweat at all except for my head and face which more than make up for the rest of my skin area. If it is at all hot and humid I am continually blinded by a waterfall of sweat pouring off my scalp and forehead into my eyes (a trait I inherited from my mom and have in common with most of the other females on that side of the family). My armpits will be completely dry but my hair and face will be dripping. Have tried every type of headband/Buff/scarf/hat, even the cooling gel ones, and nothing works to stem the flood. I have never tried antiperspirant on my face (since the rest of me doesn’t really sweat I don’t own any anyway) but figure it would not be good thing to have washing into your eyes.
I sweat on my forehead too. I keep several bandannas and swap when I need too. I wring them out and let them dry as the next one wets out. works fairly well for me. When I eat hot spicy food my forehead sweats. I should carry a bandanna when I eat Mex, Thai, etc. Maybe start a new fashion statement! 
got some Nixwax DWR because the low portion of my socks on my Kokatat dry suit were not beading up. I pulled up the leg and did the entire black sock. I could see where the ankle and below was the only part really taking the solution. Rest of the boot ankle up was beading the DWR and not really letting it in.
Castoff: Your comment about your hot food reaction reminded me of a rock climber boyfriend in my 20’s who loved super hot food but was very fair-skinned and would flush bright red and sweat profusely when he ate it. One wintry night after we had gone ice-climbing at a local highway road cut we headed with two other male climbers to our favorite Chinese restaurant. They all ordered dishes that displayed the mega-hot 3 red pepper icon warning on them in the menu and I quickly realized the dinner had become a macho “pissing match” as to which of them could withstand the most intense heat. Though it was about 10 below zero outside and not all too cozy in the dining room, all three of them started perspiring profusely until sweat was dripping off their moustaches and “mountain man” beards onto their plates (eeew). One of the guys was good friends with the owner who finally brought out his own private stash of tiny shrivelled black peppers in a jar of strangely colored thick oil. Our two companions each sampled one and dove for their water glasses. My beau chewed his thoughtfully, pronounced it “delightful” and requested a second sampling. So he “won”. It turned out to be a Pyrrhic victory – when we got back to my apartment he drank a half gallon of milk yet still had to make several urgent trips to the bathroom through the night
, reporting that the fiery flavorings were just as scalding to his nether regions as they had been to his tongue.