The Tsunami 125 Kayak by Wilderness Systems has also peaked my interest… any thoughts on it? I’m not sure why I moved away from it originally… price, maybe…
https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/87809?feat=1103-CL2&page=tsunami-125-kayak-by-wilderness-systems&csp=f
https://paddling.com/reviews/product/wilderness-systems-tsunami-125-kayak/
Rod holder see bass pro shop for recessed rod holders.[basspro.com/Bass-Pro-Shops-30-FlushMount-ABS-Rod-Holder/product/1310040641203/](http://www.basspro.com/Bass-Pro-Shops-30-FlushMount-ABS-Rod- Holder/product/1310040641203/ “basspro.com/Bass-Pro-Shops-30-FlushMount-ABS-Rod-Holder/product/1310040641203/”) Mine fit with no length adjustment.
The seat back is too high on the Tsunami. I suspect whole seat is too far forward. The keyhole thigh braces get in my way getting in and out. I cut them out of my Chesapeake 17.
The seat and cockpit on the Casco seems better.
They both have a slot at the stern for the rudder kit to sit in. The offset toggle on the Tsunami stern might be odd at first unless you always carried it to port side.(left) Both have perimeter lines, good.
@Overstreet said:
The keyhole thigh braces get in my way getting in and out. I cut them out of my Chesapeake 17.
Thanks… I think that’s what it was I didn’t like… I had read reviews where others complained about that configuration and how it cut into their knees. It seems like an odd thing to me… looks like it would be difficult to get in/out.
I paddled one of these for a few years and found them to be incredible kayaks. Comfortable and extremely stable. Unlike many inflatable kayaks this is not a pool toy. No need for roof racks and they can be transported on a plane. Do the research and you may find this is what you would need.
Re keyhole thigh braces - they are there for a purpose, to help turn and edge the kayak. This is not trivial. However, the person and the boat can be enough of a not-great fit that thigh braces can be more difficult.
Mike, first of all, I would recommend that you slow down and do a lot more research on boats, paddles and PFDs. I would also highly recommend that you go longer than 12 feet. You say you’re not a racer, but that has nothing to do with anything. Especially with your weight, you are not going to be happy in a half sunken, slow slogging rec boat. You might even have to add to the budget and I assure you that that will be of little consequence in a very short time, because if you wind up with the wrong boats to start with, you’re bound to spend even more in the long run.
Personally, I wouldn’t even consider anything under 14 feet. So look around on the Internet at what is out there. Even if and when you settle on a boat/boats, you’re only part way there. Under no circumstance settle for a so-so paddle thrown in the deal. You don’t have to give an arm and a leg for a decent paddle, but you probably will be looking at about $140 plus. I would highly recommend the Carlisle Expedition.
PFDs are going to be the same situation. Don’t go cheap and think you’ll be alright, You absolutely will want PFDs designed for paddling. Never buy anything you don’t get to try on and try on a lot of them, so you know how a good one should feel. Do your Internet research and you can always find some very good deals–after you’ve tried a bunch of them on. Ideally, you should probably have the boat first so you will be sure that the PFD actually is compatible with the boat’s seat and cockpit, but there are plenty of very good jackets that will work with any kayak.
Thanks! I found a Tsunami and Pungo in the 14’ range that can accommodate my weight, but many in that length start to say “for small/medium paddlers”. I’ll have to do some measuring, too, as I don’t think I have room to store much beyond a 14’. The cost does start to go up quite a bit, too. I had $2500-3000 set aside for the whole project, but when I look at also needing roof racks and storage hoists (only place to store is my garage ceiling) , it’s becoming overwhelming.
While I do not want to settle for any cheap or thrown-in paddle, it may be something I have to do to start with. I’m sure anything LL Bean includes would be of at least reasonable quality. Not sure about the local place, but they only sell Old Towns, anyhow. As for the PFD, I was factoring that to be @ $300 of the cost for both my wife and I.
Basically, my head is swimming now. (I appreciate the previous suggestion to consider the inflatable kayak, but I’m not sure that’s right for me and the rocky/sticky Indiana waterways.) I feel “stuck” in 1st gear and am getting tired of researching. Who knew that getting a couple of kayaks and getting out on the water would require agonizing decisions and a year’s worth of research!
If I had to choose (but please don’t make me), I’d rather have a paddle that’s strong, light, and a suitable length for me and my boat, than a boat that’s perfectly suited to my body and destinations. No doubt both are important, and it is also important that the two are a good match for each other and for you. You might have some idea of what this entails if you’ve done some paddling with various equipment already, but it’s something of an evolution in most paddlers’ experience to find gear that works the best for them. Any time I’ve swapped boats with someone, my paddle always stays in hand. Next time you’re out paddling, count the number of strokes you take per minute (or look it up online). Now extend that into a few hours on the water, and you’ll start to realize that this is perhaps the most critical component in your paddling gear. It’s akin to the tires on a car. You can have all the power, stability, and braking you want but if the interface between the tires and the road is compromised then you end up in the ditch just the same.
I have to give credit to you for giving this much more consideration and thought than most people seem to. Unfortunately, you may be a victim of “paralysis by over analysis” due to the very grey nature of many decisions to be made. I usually suggest trying lots of boats to someone who’s been out once or twice but otherwise clueless. In this case you’re not completely new to it, and you’re clearly good at considering the variables in the equation. If you can narrow your choices to a handful of boats that seem to fit your size and goals, you can pick one from that group using less stringent criteria - like what’s on sale, or what’s close by, or in a colour that stimulates you. Second hand availability has always been a factor in my own purchasing decisions. You’re likely to get a boat that serves you fairly well for a while. You may or may not find that you want to take things further, and need to get a different boat in a year or two. This seems par for the course in your situation and the reason why people who do this a lot have more than one boat and tend to buy and sell them more often than seems rational. A well-stored boat that can’t be found in your local big box store’s weekly flyer will also retain much of it’s resale value - especially if you’ve purchased it used in the first place.
Regarding the boat, I’d never again own anything that didn’t have sealed bulkheads front and rear. I sold a River Runner R5 a while back largely for this reason. I don’t want to mess with, or have to trust, flotation bags when I paddle beyond the shoreline. I also prefer long boats that track well, even for small waterways where I get odd looks amidst the short recreational boats. At first the length is cumbersome, but with time and skill I can maneuver my 17’8" Impex Assateague better in tight spots than many novices in short recreational boats. Clearly, there are limits though. If I could find a short boat that didn’t plow through the water, still tracked straight, held camping gear for a week plus, and floated my 225 lbs, 6’2" frame, I’d give it strong consideration. But alas, such a thing defies the laws of physics such as our current science and materials are.
Mike, you’ve budgeted more than enough for life jackets. You should be able to find some very good ones at around $79 a piece if you look around the Internet and watch for sales. Put the extra money toward paddles. And again, you won’t find a better paddle for the money than a Carlisle Expedition.
Re Pungoes - a 14 ft Pungo is a whole different critter than a 14 ft touring kayak, so don’t get too hung up in the length alone. The Pungo 14 ft is a recreational boat, not meant for dimensional challenging waters, with a load of primary stability. That can be a whole different animal than a 14 ft touring boat designed for a small paddler.
I tend to agree with some above. If you are looking at gross measurements like length and not realizing the range of types of boats in that length, you probably should not try spending money on a purchase yet. Spend it on demo days and maybe a couple of classes in basics so you have a better idea of how these things work and what will best suit your needs.
This Tsunami 145 would fit you well and would be a more pleasant kayak to paddle on big rivers like the Ohio than the Pungo 14. It’s a 14 footer made for bigger guys with more volume and will track and handle well. Good price at $700, located near Cincinnati. https://louisville.craigslist.org/boa/6152948528.html
Or for only $500 you could be set up with this nice inflatable tandem. Saves a lot of storage and hauling hassle. Includes what look like 2 OK PFD’s but the paddles are junk and you would need to get some decent ones.
@willowleaf said:
This Tsunami 145 would fit you well and would be a more pleasant kayak to paddle on big rivers like the Ohio than the Pungo 14. It’s a 14 footer made for bigger guys with more volume and will track and handle well. Good price at $700, located near Cincinnati. https://louisville.craigslist.org/boa/6152948528.html
Thanks for the link! I’ve actually been watching and reading a lot about the Tsunami 145, so I’m very interested. I’ve messaged about it!
I do get that there are differences … not really fixated on length, other than I just know I don’t have room to store much more than a 14-footer right now. As noted, when we paddled in Hilton Head they had 12-14 foot Pungos, but I really am not a fan of the “dashboards” on those boats.
As for the tandem inflatable… I’m not big on the inflatables, but especially not on tandems. My wife is enough of a backseat driver as it stands. lol!
Just a couple more thoughts/questions here…
Honestly, I DO know what I want. As @Sparky961 said, I may be experiencing ‘paralysis by over-analysis’. I have been reading up on this for a LONG time, and have paddled may types of kayaks over the years. I get the difference between recreational and touring boats, and I get that many folks are saying they would not buy anything shorter than a 14ft boat. I’m not against a boat that size, but MOST of my paddling will be done on lakes and streams, with very little ‘open water’ (such as Ohio River or coastal waters). I will likely NOT be doing any overnight camping trips, etc. Given that I am looking for a ‘balance’ between recreational purposes and light touring, it seems the 145 is a heavy/high-volume boat for paddling that will be (for the most part) small rivers, streams, and lakes. But it also looks like it would be perfect for the Ohio or rougher ‘off shore’ outings (1-2ft swells) on the ocean or great lakes.
The more I look, the more interested I am in the Tsunami line of kayaks. The 145 seems to be perhaps better for someone my size, though the 125 also says it is for ‘larger paddlers’ (up to 300lbs).
The Tsunami 125 is described as “Swift and agile, the spacious cockpit and deeper hull is the ideal day tripper for larger paddlers. Excels in tight, twisting environments”. And thinking about my wife, the 120 is described as a “Mid-range cockpit size with shorter length is versatile for day to weekend trips in streams, coastal regions, and large lakes.” On the surface, that sounds EXACTLY like what I’m looking for. BUT, the advice toward a 14-foot boat has me befuddled a bit.
If I looked at the “Light Touring” 120/125 (for my wife and I), what would I be losing over say the “Touring” 140/145 (wife/me)? Is the longer length going to primarily just lend to improved speed and handling on rougher waters? Surely the 12-foot range of boat lengths have their place in the water, so speaking specifically to this class of kayaks, please help me understand the difference. It seems to me that the 12-footers are still a bit more advanced than your typical “recreational kayak”, but perhaps maybe not quite as versatile as the 14-foot boats (which weigh 56lbs!). But do I really need the ‘volume’ of the 14-foot touring boat if my primary usage will almost always be shorter (half day) jaunts?
Thanks to all who have contributed thus far! I really appreciate the advice and am just soaking it in and learning. Unfortunately, there really just aren’t many (any) places in my vicinity to try out different boats. The only ‘demo days’ I found were through a local group (through facebook - which I’m not on) and featured one brand. I wish the nearest dealer wasn’t over 2 hours away! The demo days referenced previously in this thread is 2.5 hours from me (one way), on Father’s Day, which happens to also be the day my oldest goes away to camp. So no dice there. I did find a place to possibly take some lessons, however.
~Mike
Wow - just found some really interesting ‘advice’ online…
Source: http://frontenac-outfitters.com/kayaks/kayaks/wilderness-systems-tsunami-125-kayak/
Though Wilderness Systems Tsunami 125 Kayak is part of the hugely successful line of Tsunami Day Touring Kayaks. After extensive Frontenac Outfitters Test Paddling we made the difficult decision to NOT stock or recommend purchasing the Wilderness Systems Tsunami 125!
Although only slightly wider than its siblings (Tsunami 120 or Tsunami 140) the 125 is much more sluggish & less responsive Kayak to paddle. Designing a fantastic kayak is kind of like baking the perfect pie and the recipe is not always going to be perfect. Sometimes despite your best efforts you miss.
“Thankfully the Wilderness Systems Tsunami 120, 135, 140 or 145 are exceptional day touring kayak choices… but we regretfully suggest you take a pass on the 125. We trust the folks at Wilderness Systems appreciate our honest evaluation? We know our customers do!”
I’m not typically one to ‘hang my hat’ on one person’s advice, but this is about the 10th time I’ve been warned away from the 12-foot kayaks. I know they still recommend the 120, but the 125 was definitely wider and deeper and had a bigger cockpit (than even the 145).
I also found a good video online that explained more thoroughly the difference in tracking and speed for the longer vs. shorter kayaks. I get it… The part I struggled with was the more ‘logical’ side of me that thought shorter would be better for lakes and streams.
Looks like, for now, I’m primarily looking at the 140 or 145 for myself, and the 135 for my wife. I know a lot of folks here recommend trying before buying, but that’s a luxury I may not be able to accommodate.
I’ve been to Frontenac (an expert kayaker buddy of mine is in Ontario and buys his boats from them) and they are an excellent and knowledgable outfitter. I would put a lot of value on their assessments of boats.
The problem with shorter boats is that they have to be comparably wider to provide enough volume for displacement, which becomes even more problematic with a heavier paddler. I’m only 5’ 5" and 150 lbs. I currently own 5 kayaks which are 12’, 13’ 6", 15’, 15’ 7" and 18’. I only use the 12’ one for small lakes and narrow slow streams and to take on airline flights because it is a 22 pound folding kayak that packs down in a duffle bag. I never take it out where I want to paddle any distance or with people with longer boats. Virtually all 12’ boats are slower than longer boats, even those only 18" or 24" longer. In my other kayaks (the 13’ 6" and 15’ 7" are both also folding kayaks, and the 15’ and 18’ are hardshells) I can easily cover distance and keep up with anyone else I am paddling with.
Putting your wife in a shorter boat than you are in will disadvantage her in keeping up with you when you paddle together. A lower volume longer boat will give her more speed with less effort. Unless she is very petite, the Tsu 140 would be a good choice for her. The Tsu 120 is a kayak for older children and very short and lightweight adults.
“Recreational” kayaks (mostly 9’ , 10’ and 12’) are for what we call “lily-dipping”. They are for short day trips close to shore on calm waters or for leisurely floats on smaller rivers. They can be quite fun and they are all some people need. But some people get bored with them pretty quickly. If you want to feel the pleasure of covering some distance or going out on larger, windy lakes or coastal conditions or even just longer rivers, a longer boat is much more enjoyable. There are facts of basic fluid physics that mean that a shorter boat has a speed constraint beyond which even a strong paddler cannot accelerate.
To place it in an approximate automotive context: rec boats are golf carts, 14’ “light touring” boats are commuter sedans, 15’ and 16’ touring boats are highway cruisers and narrow low profile 17’ and 18’ sea kayaks and surf skis are sports cars. Obviously, there are many exceptions to that (some expedition touring kayaks are more like Mack trucks.) But I think you get the idea. If you can make it to an on-the-water demo you will quickly get the feel for what we mean about the differences between shorter and longer boats.
@willowleaf Wow… thank you! You’ve been a huge help! I appreciate your patience! All of what you said above makes a lot of sense and is very informative. I appreciate your thoughts on the Tsu 135 vs. 140, as well. And for the record - commuter sedan sounds perfect. I’m all for a Toyota Camry on the water. LOL! Thanks for putting it in ‘laymans’ terms.
I looked into the Tsunami you linked to me from Craigslist and it sounds like a great deal and starting point! The problem I’m facing right now is that it’s 2 hours away (one way) and my wife is taking the van for the weekend, so… no roof rack! I’m trying to figure out something for my truck, but it only has a 5ft bed, so needs to be a roof/tail extender kinda thing. IF I can sort that out, I’ll likely try to get it. Details… timing… ugh. :s
Unfortunately, it’s a lot more complicated than that, and I also believe that the OP’s plans to put himself in a 14- or 14.5-foot boat and his wife in a 13.5-foot boat will not create a situation where his wife is noticeably slower. But if she has the size and paddling strength, the T. 140 might well be better than the T 135. Anyway, I think it’s important to realize that those “facts of basic fluid physics” only come into play at speeds that are faster than average paddlers travel anyway, except in cases where rather long and slender boats are being pushed fairly hard (as people who own such boats are more likely to do) and someone in a substantially shorter boat is trying to keep up. At the speeds most people paddle, this is much less of an issue, and in actual fact, at anything that can be called a relaxed pace, boats that we’d call “short” actually require less effort, especially if they are decent boats to start with and not just crappy barges.
I’ve used this example before, but I have two rather similar rowboats, one that’s 12 feet long and another that’s 15 feet long. The 15-footer is faster, topping out at 6.0 mph in a sprint (the same speed that is indicated by wave theory), and speeds from 5.0 to 5.5 mph are “practical” to sustain, thought I wouldn’t call 5.5 mph all that easy. How “slow” is the 12-footer in comparison? It tops out at 5.3 mph according to wave theory, but I seem to remember sprinting for three miles at 5.5 according to the GPS (I could be wrong. Maybe it was 5.3). Cruising along at about 4.5 mph is pretty easy. And here’s the thing: At speeds of 3 to 4 mph, the 12-footer requires noticeably less effort than the 15-footer, and there’s no question about it. Also related to ease of effort in that speed range, the 12-footer can accelerate from a dead stop to 5.0 mph in a single stroke of the oars (confirmed many times by GPS), and even though the 15-footer is ultimately faster and weighs just 20 pounds more, I can’t begin to make it accelerate that suddenly (I haven’t checked, but I think hitting 4 mph in a single stroke would be about the best it could do without risking a broken oar). At a speed of 4 mph, I’d say both boats are about equal in terms of effort required, though if that’s not exactly right, I’d still assign the efficiency advantage to the 12-footer. The 15-footer really shines when substantially greater speed is needed, but the effort required is in a completely different realm than what’s used for slower speeds like 3 to 4 mph. Yes, these aren’t kayaks, but the fact that they are so similar in overall shape, and the fact that they max-out at almost exactly the speed that wave theory says that they should, gives pretty good reason, I think, to give credence to the observation that at speeds of 3 to 4 mph, the faster boat is NOT easier to propel. This is something numerous other people have pointed out in discussions here over the years. I would add one other qualifying factor, though, which is that for very skinny boats, how “abrupt” it feels to hit the maximum speed will be less pronounced, and for such boats, the range of practical cruising speeds will range closer to the maximum than for fatter boats, and the maximum will more easily be exceeded (it’s not a “true” maximum anyway, but in practical terms, for average boats, it’s pretty close).
Oh, and what of the boats proposed by the OP? Well, in the case of my two rowboats, total length is equal to waterline length but that won’t be the case for the kayaks in question. So, not knowing the actual waterline length, I’ll use a figure that’s one-half foot shorter than the total length, as that will be close enough for this purpose. Using those lengths, the theoretical maximum speeds of the 13.5-footer, the 14.0-footer and the 14.5-footer will be 5.6 mph, 5.7 mph, and 5.8 mph, respectively. Those figures are so close that I would expect that for each boat, the range of practical speeds that are well below the maximum would be mostly overlapping each other, and I’ve never seen anything on group paddles that would lead me to doubt that this would be true. All I’ve seen are slow paddlers, not slow boats (obvious exceptions exist of course, but I’m thinking in terms of relatively similar designs), unless the boats are shorter by a bigger amount than we are talking about in this case.
I’ll finish up by pointing out that a friend of mine paddles a 13.5 foot kayak, and can keep up on any group paddle we’ve been on. I have another friend, who’s a very small and somewhat elderly woman, has a 16-or 17-foot kayak in which she’s slower than molasses, and a 10-foot “beach toy” in which she’s definitely faster. When she got into the sport, she followed very bad advice from “experts” to get a long boat so she could keep up with other paddlers, but she lacks the strength to overcome all that extra skin friction of the longer boat, so she can’t take advantage of the faster speed that the boat is ultimately capable of.
@Supermike72 said:
… it’s 2 hours away (one way) and my wife is taking the van for the weekend, so… no roof rack! …
I’ve been surprised in the past when people have offered to meet me half way, thus saving me a total of two hours round trip. You never know where their lives will be taking them, so it never hurts to ask.
Not that it helps with the roof rack problem. You need a topper/cap on your truck. That makes it much easier without a rack. Or you just convince your wife to take the truck instead.
@Guideboatguy - Physics! You’ve blown my mind. LOL! Actually, I totally get what you are saying - and interestingly you have generally stated the premise I’ve been operating on since the beginning. That for a casual paddle on creeks, rivers, lakes, and maybe coastal marsh waters, a 12-foot boat is probably not going to be considerably slower than a 14-foot boat, when going at a leisurely (‘bird-watchingesque’) pace.
Would we find them to be a bit of a slog when grouped with other paddlers in longer boats? Likely. And would we find them to be a bit ‘undersized’ in mild surf (1-2ft swells) or windy days? Likely. That said, I also get what @willowleaf is saying, too. I happen to be a fairly strong guy, so I’m not too concerned about my ability to power a 14-foot boat, and the 14.5 footer would likely be better on the river. As for my wife - the 13.5 or 14 should work (I’m too afraid to ask or guess at her weight). I do not know how much difference the extra 6 inches would make, but I’m sure she’d appreciate the extra cockpit room of the 140. She’s about 5’7, and carries her weight low. 
:*
@Sparky961 Thank you for the suggestion! I may ask if he could at least come this way a little bit. My wife is driving to Chicago with 3 kids, so no way is she going to take the truck. LOL! I’m in a much bigger hurry to get this hobby rolling than she is (“we have plenty of other stuff going on right now”). Was thinking of employing a strategy kind of like what you see on this site (see the additional pictures):
www.austinkayak.com/products/134/Darby-Extend-A-Truck-Bed-Extender.html