Thoughts on Kayak purchase

[magooch]

Mike, the reason it seems like some of us are beating a dead horse is that we’ve been through exactly the situation you find yourself in and you might say that we learned maybe the hard and more expensive way. Celia makes the point that eventually and probably sooner than you think, you will encounter conditions that might rapidly become very threatening in boats that aren’t up to dealing with what you find yourself confronted with. A very large part of being prepared is your ability and that mostly comes with lots of experience, but even practiced experience will still have you in a bad fix in boats that just aren’t right for conditions.

A long time ago, I had my first rigid kayak and thought it was my ultimate do-it-all boat. It was a very well built 13’-8" boat that has a nice cruising speed. I had taken a paddle up river with the plan that it would be easy to come back downriver on the return trip. It all seemed like simple logic. Things aren’t always that simple. On the way back downstream, the tide had changed and was coming in with a vengeance and had a strong wind helping push it along. As I paddled along, I soon realized I was not gaining ground and no matter how hard I paddled, I was just maintaining my position. A quick calculation in my head told me that the tide would be running in for many more hours and I would be out there in the dark and probably worn to a frazzle. I was able to find a way to finally make headway, but it was still a very hard slog to get back to my launch site.

That experience was not the only one that brought me to where I am now, but it might have been the beginning. I now own four kayaks–two of them are extremely capable all-conditions sea kayaks. Believe me, there is nothing like having a boat that you absolutely are sure will get you where you want to go, no matter how hairy it gets. Even better is that the boat does it so easily that big waves, strong wind and whatever else is going on just adds to the fun.

You might not think that speed is all that important, but I assure you that it will become important as will the overall competence of the boat and the operator. The operator will improve with lots of practice, but a boat that lacks certain characteristics will not.

This is my longwinded way of saying don’t be surprised if you get the bug real bad and sooner than you might imagine, you’ll be boat shopping again and maybe again. You might stave that off a bit longer by being very careful on the first purchase. Good luck and happy paddling.

[Supermike72]

So, I just bought two 10ft sun dolphin kayaks from Rural King…

Just kidding! Thought I’d give you all a jolt. lol! I am very thankful for all the advice and input received thus far. It has been extraordinarily helpful as I slough through all the options. I believe I have a MUCH better idea now of what I want/need, have increased my budget, and will shop carefully and accordingly. I may not get to try before I buy unless I happen upon just the right opportunity, but I feel much more confident now in my direction. Thank you all for helping me along!

I’m still open to additional advice/input, but hopefully soon I’ll see some of you on the water somewhere!

Mike

[string]

SM,you have to be an engineer!
An old boss had a sign in his office: " There comes a time when you need to shoot the engineer and get on with the project."
Take your best shot and get to it.

[Supermike72]

@string Pretty close - IT architect. We have to analyze and re-analyze what we’re about to do 10x before flipping a switch, lest we bring down the whole company. And even then, when unforseen things happen, you get thrown over the coals for not knowing why some unknown bug came back to bite you. LOL!

[Sparky961]

@Supermike72 said:
So, I just bought two 10ft sun dolphin kayaks from Rural King…

LOL - got me! I was browsing on my phone and had to put it down right after I read this line. Cursing aloud “WTF! I thought that guy had some sense!”. It was only after firing up my computer to see the rest of the chatter that I find you have a good sense of humour too.

What @Celia and @magooch said recently, you can’t buy great advice like that. Fortunately when I was shopping for boats I must have come across similar advice because I went right to a full sized fiberglass boat. Though I was strongly considering a 14’ Necky at the time. I’ve never looked back, though I have seen various plastic boats come and go from my shed in the meantime while searching for something I can bash against the rocks but still enjoy paddling.

[Supermike72]

LOL! Sorry @Sparky961 - all in good fun!

Speaking of Necky, I’ve also looked closely at the Manitou 14 and the Looksha 14, but still find myself going back to the Tsunamis. The Manitou looks like it’s about to bend in half, and the Looksha has ‘okay’ reviews, but I found a lot of folks telling more about what they don’t like than what they do. The Tsunamis, on the other hand, seem to be all “love it” stuff.

Either way - you folks have spoken, and I have heard your pleas. I’ve moved beyond 10-12-footers (though my wife will probably freak when she sees the size of the 14 foot boats, but she’ll get over it). ha! Also, I will likely pay a visit to an REI or find a paddling shop somewhere when choosing a paddle and pfd, so we can make sure they fit right.

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Now you’ve opened a new can of worms!
A good paddle , IMHO, is more important than the boat unless the boat is junk.
I went from a 240cm aluminum and plastic beast very quickly to a fiberglass and nylon ,to an all carbon fiber paddle , 215 cm.
Aquabound makes a good carbon shaft, nylon blade paddle that won’t destroy the budget that is a good starter paddle. Campmor has them at a good price. Oh, and I use a home made Greenland style at 220 cm.
Length is worthy of another thesis and there are many in the archives. Length is dependent be on your body . Shoulder width, height, and arm length all play into it. Then there is blade width.
Epic and Werner,I think, have on line programs to help.
The best thing to do is borrow paddles of different lengths and try them with your boat.
The coolest , most comfortable PFD I have owned is an Astral V-8.

[Supermike72]

Haha… that might be putting the cart before the horse, so to speak… Heck, I still have to figure out how I’m going to haul and store them. Too many irons in the fire. But, the pencil is getting sharper.

Thanks for the tips!

[Sparky961]

@Supermike72 said:
Speaking of Necky, I’ve also looked closely at the Manitou 14 and the Looksha 14, but still find myself going back to the Tsunamis. The Manitou looks like it’s about to bend in half, and the Looksha has ‘okay’ reviews, but I found a lot of folks telling more about what they don’t like than what they do. The Tsunamis, on the other hand, seem to be all “love it” stuff.

Though my personal experience is limited here, I suspect that Wilderness Systems builds their plastic boats more rigidly and robustly than any Necky I’ve witnessed. Now WS’s crazy 100-way adjustable lounger seats… jury’s still out on that one. Maybe I’m just jealous because I have to sit in a hard fiberglass bowl.

[string]

Based on the 2 Neckys I’ve owned, their seats suck. Butt, I’m heavy with bony hips.
The WS Phase 3 seat is far more comfortable.

[willowleaf]

Do you have a trailer hitch on your truck? You can get a T-rack that slips into the hitch ball reciever that will support the stern of a boat while the bow can be mounted over the cab using foam blocks or a hollow foam pool noodle strapped around the cab roof with long nylon straps. Be sure to guy the bow and stern to the front and rear bumpers as well as to whatever cross bar rigs you use.

[Supermike72]

Thanks! That’s actually exactly what I’m looking into… Considered using an extender but even if it goes 4’ that still only covers 9 of the 14, so have to go overhead or get a trailer. I’ll figure something out!

[string]

I carry my 16’ kayak flat in the bed of my p/u with an extender. I use two straps to hold it and it is very secure. One strap on the extender and one to the truck.
Our state requires that it have a flag attached.
.

[willowleaf]

Other hauling options: I used to be a construction project manager before I retired and several times had company pickups with the open type ladder rack frames on them, rather than a cap. If I owned a pickup myself that is what I would have. Completely leaves your bed free for loading whatever you want but gives you a frame to haul long stuff on. It also is great for when you haul something that you don’t want to get wet in transit or need to enclose in some way since you can use the frame to support plywood or tarps. I have even gone camping using a pickup with a ladder rack and slept in the bed with an army surplus mosquito net draped and tied over it and a tarp on the top. I realize some people don’t like the way they look, but they sure are functional.

Also, used pickup truck caps are very cheap in most areas on Craigslist. My ex had two pickup trucks (a nice one for the road and a beater for use on his farm and wood lot) and he got caps for both for under $50 each.

[Nighthawk_Canoes]

I have a couple boats today that match your budget and description. See: http://www.nighthawkcanoes.com/sale-canoes-details/

[Sparky961]

@Nighthawk Canoes said:
I have a couple boats today that match your budget and description. See: http://www.nighthawkcanoes.com/sale-canoes-details/

Did you even read the thread before posting your ad? None of the boats I saw after clicking the link even remotely match what has been discussed. Or maybe someone can set me straight and tell me what I missed…

[Celia]

@Nighthawk Canoes
Buy a proper ad and post there. Don’t sneak marketing into a valid question.
And Sparky961 is right, what you are trying to sell isn’t even close.

[Supermike72]

Hey folks… I know often times people probably stumble through here, ask for advice or opinions, then disappear. I’ve experienced that on other forums for various things and then later wonder how it turned out. So I thought I’d at least come back (well, I’m still lurking) and just give you an update, as I really appreciated the advice I received. Turns out, some of you were very right, and some maybe not.

So, perhaps against the better advice, and after EXTENSIVE time spent researching, I ended up just jumping in with both feet! I had saved some cash, and came into a little cash unexpectedly, so I decided to make a ‘lifestyle’ purchase. Unfortunately, there are not really any decent vendors in my vicinity, so I had to go mostly online. Here’s the breakdown on what I selected:

Boats: I bought a Wilderness Systems Tsunami 140 (from Kayakcity.com) for my wife, and for myself I bought a Wilderness Systems Tsunami 145 (from LLBean). I got a great price on the 140… not so much on the 145. But man there was a MAJOR difference in the service, warranty, etc. Kayakcity was great to work with up until the point of receiving the boat. It had a few gouges in it. Followed all their warranty processes, but kept the boat (didn’t affect floatability). Very well documented. Now, 2 months later, I’m still waiting on them to resolve with the shipping company. I would not recommend them. However, LLBean was great and boat arrived in great condition. I know a lot of folks recommend buying used, but no decent options ever appeared. I also like knowing where my stuff has been and how it has been treated. The 140 is a 2016, I believe, while the 145 was a 2017 model. Both are ‘Mango’ colored, which I liked for visibility purposes on the water. Both are rudder-less.

Paddles: for my wife, an Aquabound Sting Ray Hybrid Posi-lok paddle (230cm), and for myself an Aquabound Sting Ray Carbon Posi-Lok paddle (also 230cm). Got these from campmor and got 20% off both plus free shipping & no tax, so got a solid deal. These are both really nice paddles - very lightweight.

PFDs: selected a Kokohat “Bahia Tour” for myself, and a Stohlquist “Women’s Flo” for my wife. Both of these fit well and are comfortable.

Other stuff: picked up a couple of Seals Sprayskirts neoprene cockpit covers, which work really well for travelling and storage. It enables us to store our PFDs in the cockpits &, keep spiders out, rain while travelling, etc. Also got a couple of paddle leashes, a towing tether, pump and sponge, whistles, etc.

Storage: To store my boats, I built a hoist in my garage ceiling! This took some really extensive planning and implementation. I use a worm-gear winch and heavy-duty drill to raise and lower. It hangs perfectly just above my door. The poly rope stretches a lot more than I thought, despite the total weight of boats/paddles/pfds/hoist/etc. not being more than probably 175lbs. To counter this, I mounted some eye-bolts and chain and carabiners to support the weight, when raised. I used pool noodles slid over PVC pipe to support the kayaks. This will hopefully prevent any denting during periods of long storage.

Hauling: For our van (2015 Honda Odyssey), I bought 2 sets of Malone Sea Wings. These worked perfectly with the factory rack, and handled well while travelling. However, they are a bit of a pain for a quick jaunt to the lake or river. I would be more apt to use them for longer trips, vacation, etc. My wife was able to help me, but my daughter was not going to be of much help. So I bought an extension for my truck and did some more ‘engineering’ with pvc pipe and pool noodles. There is one across the back (you can see in pictures), one across the tailgate area, and one further back in the bed. This was a MUCH better solution for quick trips!

Pics and more details to follow…

[Supermike72]

Okay… so now for the question of “so how do you like them!?”

This is where I was right, and wrong. Make no mistake -both of these are GREAT boats. Very stable & very easy to paddle. Even on windy, choppy water they held a pretty straight line… no complaints there! They both have ample (maybe too much!) storage. I wish it was a little easier to get into the hatches, but that’s not a huge issue. We also like the paddles and PFDs that we (mostly I) selected.

The killer was this… my wife did NOT like the 140! :s In fact, she felt VERY ‘claustrophobic’ in it and, due to her shape, was simply NOT comfortable getting in/out. Our first trip out was almost a nightmare for me, as the 140 is definitely NOT returnable (whereas the 145 from LLBean is!). As a last ditch, I offered to use the 140 and let her use the 145. She was still not thrilled, but had an easier time getting in and ‘adjusted’ to the idea that you “wear” a kayak. For me, using the 140 was not too big of a deal. I’m a big guy, but I’m also a swimmer. At @250lbs, I’m overweight but I seem to carry it all in my face and stomach. I have skinny legs and not much butt, so the 140 worked for me. In fact, after having used them both, I almost felt like I like the 140 a little better… I felt more ‘connected’ to it vs. the 145 (which was recommended to me by several people). I felt I had ample leg room in both, though a little more ‘wiggle room’ in the 145. I was able to get in/out of the 145 better, but it IS a big boat.

For my wife, I should’ve considered this. She says she told me she wasn’t fond of the idea of squeezing into a kayak. I don’t recall this, but I guess in retrospect I should’ve looked at something like the Pungo 140 for her and the kids to use. The cockpit entry probably would’ve been better received vs. the ‘keyhole’ style, and I’m sure they would’ve liked the ‘dashboard’.

My daughter and I have also been out. She used the 140, I used the 145. She is more petite (around 5’6") and athletic (she is a swimmer and runs track). She really enjoyed it.

Overall, I’ve now been out twice. I took my wife on a very calm lake that does not allow motor boats. My daughter and I went on a much larger lake, but it was no issue. With 3 very active kids, we don’t get a lot of time. But I’m hopeful that my wife will continue to give it a shot. I’ve tossed around returning the 145 to LLBean and exchanging for a Pungo 140, and using the Tsunami 140 for myself, but I need to get in it again. Now the weather is getting cold, so I don’t know how much I’ll be able to get out… maybe we’ll get some warmer days in November.

Thanks to everyone for your help and advice!!

Mike

Here are some pics from our adventures… sorry, can’t figure out how to make them appear as thumbnails!

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Great feedback. I think you are off to a great start!