Do Kayak sails slow paddling?

PaddleDog,
Correct. The closer to 45 degrees the more things slow with a single mast like SeaDog/Flat Earth/Falcon Sails, with an unmodifed kayak. More upwind then leeboards like on a Kayaksailor rig is needed. Off too upwind dropping the SeaDog Sail to the deck takes less than 2 seconds.

See you on the water,
Marshall
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Two kinds of sails to consider. Downwind sails, and foils. Sailboats often have both - and often several sizes/types of each. Years ago, I began to collect the components to, essentially, turn a canoe into a sailboat. That lead to actually owning a series of sailing dinghies and eventually a 20’ sailboat. What I have found in the process is that unless your sailing craft can tack really close to the wind and get up on plane (or is way too large to paddle), you can probably get to your upwind destination faster by paddling your canoe/kayak straight into the wind. If your destination is directly across the wind, that is another story. Downwind is going to depend a lot on the size of your downwind sail and the speed of the wind. While you might sail across the wind faster than the actual wind speed, you will not outrun it going downwind without working against a lot of drag.

So, the answer is “maybe”. A sail can slow your arrival to destination if you are tacking into the wind vs paddling an efficient hull straight into the wind (we’re talking personal size displacement hulls here). It can slow you down if you are going downwind, and that wind is less than the speed at which you can paddle. If you are using an efficient upwind “foil” sail to get to a destination directly across the wind (“broad reach”), it can get you there faster (and less tired :wink: ). OTOH - if you have the rigging (mast, stays, etc) for a real efficient sail that you can’t raise because of the current lack of wind or inconvenient wind direction, you will experience significant drag from the rig itself - unless you have the time and the means to take the rig down.

I gave up on the idea of anything other than a downwind sail in a canoe, but that is mostly because I have a sailboat. If you enjoy sailing just for the sake of sailing (and I do), or you have favorable prevailing winds that work (as in allowing you to stay mostly on a single tack) for your intended route(s), it may still be worth it to you to have a “real” sailing rig for your paddlecraft. If you just want to take advantage of wind when you can to get where you’re going, you may be best off with a collapsible downwind “sail”.

The sailing rig for my Shrike includes two skegs, one in the conventional place for downwind work, and one near the bow for sailing to windward. On a reach both skegs are down.

My one experience around people using kayak sails was on a long trip. These people were normally faster paddlers than me but once they put the sails up, they actually slowed down so much that I and the other group member had to keep stopping to wait for them.

The reason is that the wind was light and they stopped paddling, so of course they slowed to a crawl.

AND the sails were useless for heading anywhere but downwind, when they didn’t need auxiliary power anyway.

I’ve had a Pacific Action sail for years, have not used it in some time, but on a boat like mine, I was impressed with the speed I could achieve in the proper conditions. Since the PA sail is best used for a downwind run, it has it’s limitations. I found having a GPS to find the right point of sail helps a great deal. Once at Raystown, Mike McCrea and I decided to try the sail in a VERY BRISK WIND. We first paddled into the wind shadow created by a hill to our west. Once there we both put up our sails and gradually sailed into the full force of the wind at our back. This was only the 2nd time I had used the sail. Mike had a bit of a head start and took off in his Barca Lounger of a boat, wide and stable. Me on the other hand, I was in an 18 foot kayak 21 1/4" wide. I soon caught up to him and passed him, when all of a sudden my boat was flying, scared the crap out of me! According to my GPS, at one point I hit 22 mph, I was skipping across the wave tops. Kayak was rocking back and forth and had to brace in order to stay upright. I desperately wanted to stop but could not put the paddle down for fear of tipping. I started humping the boat on one side in order to turn and gradually I was perpendicular to the wind and was able to snatch the sail down. I had broken out in a cold sweat and was relieved that the worst had not happened.

One another occasion on a trip to Assateague, we sailed over 12 miles without taking a paddle stroke, the wind was much milder on this occasion.

I replaced all the lines on the sail to thicker ones, I installed clam clamps for the lines which allowed me to drop the sail in short order. Also put a rudder on the boat when I sail.

Have not sailed for years at this point, someday I’ll try it again, but will be careful as far as the wind speed.

@nickcrowhurst said:
The sailing rig for my Shrike includes two skegs, one in the conventional place for downwind work, and one near the bow for sailing to windward. On a reach both skegs are down.

When see sailing rigs like this, I tend to think the designer doesn’t really understand how a sail works - or else doesn’t intend for it to be much more then a downwind rig. I would want a loose footed sail with more potential belly (adjustable), higher aspect, and less surface area up high. Might even just go with a light jib with some kind of whisker pole setup. But maybe a kayak doesn’t need or can’t handle an efficient sail. My sailing-based bias tells me that a kayak would have to be wider than ideal for paddling, to really take advantage of an efficient sail…unless some kind of outrigger was employed (more drag/weight to manage when not sailing) as with the Hobie Adventure Island.

How close to the wind can you sail with that? How much leeway does it suffer? Can you run the sail loose footed - or does it have to be sleeved over the boom, as in the photo?

Your questions require mainly quantitative answers, which could be addressed to the vendor at http://seadogsails.blogspot.com
Any answers from me would be qualitative, and hence of little value.
Nick.


I like sailing my kayak. I sail it when I am tired and/or it can help me travel faster than I may otherwise have been able to. If I was travelling directly into the wind the sail would add no value, thus tacking would be required. If speed was measured in reduction of distance from desired destination then perhaps speed would be slower. However, why would one raise the sail to slow oneself down? The sail should only be raised when it increases the speed or decreases the effort to obtain the desired speed. Or of course just raise it for the pure pleasure of sailing. Why not?
Its about the journey otherwise I would use a power boat. Sail on…

Fir me I’m not running a race so if I said into the wind and it takes longer than paddling it’s for the joy of it. As stated above it’s the journey not the lap times. I get a thrill holding up my paddle and feeling the wind pull me…

Those questions I asked were mostly rhetorical (although I’d find the answers interesting), and just an example of things to think about when deciding on a sail…or whether to have a sail. I don’t mean to sound like I think sails are a waste of time, because I don’t. Well, actually - I have to admit that for most of us who do not live on the coast or the Great Lakes, myself included, sailing in general is literally a waste of time - but a fine and lovely waste of time it is!

Yes…when sailing is correctly applied paddling frequency is slowed down to minimum.

For me it’s not about speed all the time sailing but feeling the wind pull me. So if I do more miles slower it will still be fun. .

@PaddleDog52 said:
For me it’s not about speed all the time sailing but feeling the wind pull me. So if I do more miles slower it will still be fun. .

My feelings exactly - and I see by what I bolded that you do understand sailing. :wink:

I understand when I hold up my big blade paddles to grab air it’s a good feeling. Would not mind having a 30’ sail boat but I know squat. I would like to get a ride in 30-40’ sail boat in rough water.

I thought you were seriously deliberate about the choice of your word, “pull”, Paddledog. So many people think the wind only pushes the sail.

Well I know it will pull like an airplane wing foil on one side like a wing creates lift. High pressure on one side on lower bottom. Lower pressure on longer side. Different travel speeds of air top & bottom. But still do not know much about actually sailing.

I like America’s Cup and Volvo Ocean racing. There it’s easy to see sails are not always pushed.

@PaddleDog52 said:
Well I know it will pull like an airplane wing foil on one side like a wing creates lift. High pressure on one side on lower bottom. Lower pressure on longer side. Different travel speeds of air top & bottom. But still do not know much about actually sailing.

That’s more than a good start!

The 2018 Everglades Challenge was in strong downwind conditions this year, and I found a well/sailed and paddled sailing kayak to be unbeatable .

A new class 1 record for the 300 mile race was set by Bob Waters (Busted Rudder) using a kayakpro Marlin and a modified flat earth sail. I managed a distant second place (no sail). I must confess that I experienced “sail envy” as Bob and others skimmed along, hardly paddling, while I was keeping my best paddling pace, bone-tired, with many hours / miles to go. I got ahead of the other sailing kayaks only by getting minimal sleep and paddling through the night multiple times (finally requiring a big block of sleep to recover).

I don’t plan on using a sail for future events, but would like to run a faster class 2 kayak (racing kayak class), if I can find one with just the right amount of stability (or use something like a Huki Gull-wing for support).

Image below is of my stock 18X Ultra and Bob’s customized Flat earth sail, loading the kayaks in preparation for the start.

@gstamer
“Distant second place”??? Not in my book. You were the first solo kayak to arrive at KL solely by your own power with no assistance from a sail. That’s the purest form of competition in the race and I think the most difficult.

You also paddled the 300+ miles in 3 days, 23 hours (breaking your own previous records) and arrived at the finish before 20+ some sailboats. That’s crazy fast, mind boggling, and I’m awestruck.

Your tracker avatar is spot on. Mega accolades!