@kayamedic said:
But were they actually travelling the proper course while misaligned? Thats happened to me on big lake crossings with intense wind funnelling… I am curious. I usually get blown bow crosswise when trying to enter a wind funnel from a wind eddy.
Absolutely not. The strong crosswind was 90 degrees to the desired proper course. An unwanted forced turn into that wind was a waste of distance, time, and energy.
I understand the bearing was wrong… but what was their track? I have done this so often and wound up exactly where I wanted even pointed the wrong way! Perhaps not the speed they wanted.
I generally agree with Pag on this, but also with the specific item pointed out by Allen Olsen, that for a boat that weathercocks, the advice in the video makes sense.
As to the affects of wind on a solo canoe being “easy to study”, I think it’s actually rather complex. Using the canoe-like boat referred to in my earlier post as an example, it’s true that if I let the guide-boat just drift sideways in the wind, it will be perfectly perpendicular to the wind, and yes, shifting the weight a little forward or back will cause the boat to “weather vane” a little or a lot, depending on how far the weight is shifted. BUT, and this is critically important, a boat that is moving forward at speed through the water is a whole different animal than one that is stationary (that is, stationary other than sideways drifting due to wind). That’s where weathercocking induced by the stern getting “looser” with increasing forward speed becomes a factor. In fact, if I’m out in the guide-boat in a wind of 30 mph or more, I can literally “get stuck” sideways against the wind, and trying to pivot the boat to point some other direction, which is normally a piece of cake with oars, can’t be done. However, if I simply crank up some forward power and get up to 5 mph or so, it then becomes quite easy to turn the boat into the wind, and relatively easy to turn in some other direction, but turning into the wind comes most naturally once up to speed. How fast the boat is moving forward through the water makes all the difference when it comes to whether or not, and how strongly, the boat tends to weathercock. I don’t see this as a simple thing because no combination of forward speeds or wind speeds results in the same strength of weathercocking.
The situation I describe above works in a canoe too, but compared to a guide-boat, solo canoes are extremely handicapped in strong wind so the principle I tried to describe is much more difficult to recognize (to illustrate what I mean, I don’t know many people who can easily exceed 5 mph in a solo canoe while going crosswise to a 25- or 30-mph wind while in waves that are shoulder or head high).
Other things mentioned by Pag and Pete I agree with, such as the idea that in a lot of canoes, natural trim is a little bit bow-light, and at typical canoe speeds, the resulting looseness of the bow (sometimes accentuated by greater sheer up front) is likely to exceed the degree of loosening undergone by the stern (though with most boats, that situation WILL reverse itself if the boat moves fast enough in the forward direction). That observation explains the earlier failure of my memory regarding which way my current canoes tend to turn in a cross wind, or at least that I seem to recall that it’s a greater struggle to turn upwind than downwind in many cases which of course results in a paddling recommendation that is opposite that provided by the video. That of course brings up Allen Olsen’s comment, which puts that in proper perspective instead of just saying the video is wrong.
And some boats have a definite tendency to turn broadside to the wind and lock into that orientation. The boat in which I have experienced this most notably is the long, skinny Wenonah Voyageur which has a lot of windage when paddled unloaded. I have seen and felt this boat turn broadside to a stiff wind and skate laterally across the water. When that happens, with so much boat sticking out in front of and behind the paddler, it requires a very determined effort to get either end to turn up into the wind.<
This reminds me of my first attempt to solo paddle a Wenonah Jensen 18. This was long ago (but not so far away) on a fairly small lake. I don’t think that the breeze was that strong, but I had a heck of a time turning into the wind so I could return to the launch.
@kayamedic said:
I understand the bearing was wrong… but what was their track? I have done this so often and wound up exactly where I wanted even pointed the wrong way! Perhaps not the speed they wanted.
I could plainly see that the boats ahead of me, and then when it was my turn, that the effect was to take us well off the desired track toward the end of the lake. We were in fact making progress off the desired track line, upwind into the bay, not toward the end of the lake where we wanted to go. Eventually as the lake narrowed again all were able to correct course to the beginning of the river at the end of the lake where it narrowed with protection from the wind (although a couple of boats capsized in their attempt - I witnessed a C6 voyageur canoe go over as it passed the rocky outcrop and I later heard of others as well). It was not an easy thing to do after an offtrack side excursion into the bay.
I disagree with the idea that canoes always weathercock. Weathercocking is only possible at the behest of the paddler who can by changing the position of the load on a hull cause it to weathercock or not. If the paddler has done those things that results in a weathercocking hull that means the hull has turned upwind and so is facing in the same exact direction from which the wind is coming. and so when the wind shifts the canoe will shift in conformity and will stay facing upwind. In that case there is no wind from the left or right there is only upwind and normal forward strokes will keep a straight course with small adjustments toward either the right or left as needed. But only rarely is one’s destination exactly the same trajectory as the wind, so paddlers should know what strokes are needed to paddle in a wind that is not exactly in their face> @Allan Olesen said:
@Pagayeur said:
Next discussed was paddling in wind from the offside and onside. IMO, they just got these terms reversed because the action they suggest is the exact opposite of what I would advise. Let’s talk about offside wind first. To avoid confusion we’ll drop “offside” and “onside” and use the terms “right” and “left” instead. So, you’re paddling along on the right side and a breeze comes up from left to right. According to our empirical experiment above, it will want to turn the hull broadside to the direction of the wind, in this case the bow will be pushed toward the right.Ooops. Something wrong with your reasoning there. Remember that the video contains advice for a canoe which weathercocks. We can discuss whether it should weathercock or not, but weathercocking is the stated premise in the video. Consequently, we will have to judge their advice in the light of this premise.
So the question we should ask ourselves is: “Will the instructions in the video work on a boat which is weathercocking?”
Ok. Back to your example.
A wind comes from the left. In a weathercocking boat, this will cause the boat to turn left. So you will have to do something in your strokes to make the boat turn more towards the right. If I am not mistaken, if you are paddling on the right side, that “something” could be a J-stroke.Sorry, but the logic of the video seems sound to me.
No, the vid fails immediately when the statement is made that “canoes are designed to weathercock and will always turn into the wind”. Now, I’m not a gearhead so I don’t know about every canoe out there, but I’d venture to say that none are manufactured to weathercock on their own volition. Almost every weathercock is a result of outside forces, not design. I think if a canoe has a tendency to weathercock most of the time it is due to being weighted in the bow and can be remedied by moving the seat astern or whatever is needed to trim the pitch.
The more likely thing for an instructor to say, is that all canoes will be turned by wind and here’s what to do when that happens. If that is the case the they are mixed up and I stand by my methods.
@Pagayeur said:
No, the vid fails immediately when the statement is made that “canoes are designed to weathercock and will always turn into the wind”.
This is getting silly.
As I said, you can discuss the premise - that the boat will weathercock. If I am in a kayak which weathercocks, I will first try to stop the weathercocking with trim or skeg, instead of using corrective strokes. So I think we think very much alike on that point.
(But I will also say that default behaviour for a boat is to weathercock at speed. If the boat is perfectly balanced at standstill so it neither weathercocks nor leecocks, it will weathercock when it gets forward speed. This has been perfectly explained by Guideboatguy. And those of us who paddle symmetrically in both sides probably notice it more because it is not disguised by asymmetrical paddling. So weathercocking should not just get dismissed.)
Anyway, once the premise of weathercocking is set, you will either have to accept it or stop watching the video or at least watch it silently. As long as the advice given in the video is true to the stated premise, you can’t fault the advice.
Your complaint can be boiled down to:
“See, these guys claim that canoes weathercock. But my canoes don’t weathercock. And that is not the worst. They also give advice about which strokes to use when a canoe weathercocks. And those strokes are clearly wrong because they don’t work in my canoes which don’t weathercock.”
I agree with both of you. I agree with Allan that if the boat is weathercocking (you would need perfect trim, symmetrical bow and stern windage and a pinned bow), the stokes described in the video would be a reasonable way to deal with that situation.
I also agree with Pagayeur that the boat in the video, which is significantly bow light, is not going to respond that way. We all know it is going to blow downwind not upwind, requiring the opposite strokes to keep it going straight.
So its a trick question. I don’t know if it is correct to say canoes are designed to weathercock, but under the right conditions they might. It is definitely wrong to say that canoes always turn into the wind.
@eckilson said:
I don’t know if it is correct to say canoes are designed to weathercock
I think good canoes are designed not to suffer from lee helm, but from that I wouldn’t say that canoes are designed to weather helm.
Bow into the wind is way preferable to across the trough in three foot waves. Dramamine please!
Oh and boats may not be DESIGNED to weathercock but the execution of unmolding has released at least one unpleasant surprise. The Aquaterra Spectrum weather cocked when you looked at it. Spoke to the designer who said it was not supposed to do that but when the poly came out of the mold the stern sprang.
Fair enough. I know nothing about kayaks and have never been in a solo canoe that weathercocked on its own. Some action by the paddler was always required. I defer to KM’s encyclopedic knowledge of hulls anytime.
My Sawyer Summersong will weathercock if I have my sliding seat is all the way back, if I slide up a bit the weathercocking diminishes. I normally paddle with a double blade in the canoe and that makes it easier for me in high winds and I don’t have to twist my wrist. Trimming the boat is key.
@Pagayeur said:
Fair enough. I know nothing about kayaks and have never been in a solo canoe that weathercocked on its own. Some action by the paddler was always required. I defer to KM’s encyclopedic knowledge of hulls anytime.
The most fun weathercocking was with a hull with a load and with a dog… She STOOD in the bow… This was counterproductive to going downwind.
I could correct this by actually stopping and turning the boat bow downwind… But in the long run I gave up and paddled back to the take out backwards
Here’s a link that describes the phenomenon that yknpdlr brought up, the moving pivot point. It says that the pivot point in a stationary boat is approximately at the center of gravity of the boat+load but that when up to cruising speed the pivot point moves forward to about 1/3 of the boat length from the bow. That is huge! So in a 15 foot solo the pivot point might move 1-2 feet forward from dead rest to full cruise speed(!!!). In one of yknpdlr’s long boats the pivot point might shift like 3-4 feet. So I may not be able to offset this even with the full range of the sliding seats in my Swift solos, and yknpdlr’s whole crew might need to scoot back a good 3 feet or more to avoid spinning out.
I was not even aware of this phenomenon. The basic physics seems to be a high pressure zone building up around the bow of a moving boat and a low pressure zone in the rear from the “loose” displaced water which makes the bow extra sticky relative to the stern and moves the effective pivot point forward. I think the rest of the physics is more intuitive…the wind and water pushing against the side of a boat will try to make it rotate about its pivot point.
This helps explain why it’s so easy to control an Osprey in a quartering tailwind with stern rudder. It also gives me a hint around why I used to sometimes spin out in my Flashfire during a sprint.
https://clydewinter.wordpress.com/2006/08/06/ithe-peripatetic-pivot-point/
Here’s another link that talks about kayak weather cocking and the impact of the moving pivot point.
@canonymous said:
@eckilson said:
I don’t know if it is correct to say canoes are designed to weathercockI think good canoes are designed not to suffer from lee helm, but from that I wouldn’t say that canoes are designed to weather helm.
@eckilson said:
I agree with both of you. I agree with Allan that if the boat is weathercocking (you would need perfect trim, symmetrical bow and stern windage and a pinned bow), the stokes described in the video would be a reasonable way to deal with that situation.I also agree with Pagayeur that the boat in the video, which is significantly bow light, is not going to respond that way. We all know it is going to blow downwind not upwind, requiring the opposite strokes to keep it going straight.
So its a trick question. I don’t know if it is correct to say canoes are designed to weathercock, but under the right conditions they might. It is definitely wrong to say that canoes always turn into the wind.
@kayamedic said:
@Pagayeur said:
Fair enough. I know nothing about kayaks and have never been in a solo canoe that weathercocked on its own. Some action by the paddler was always required. I defer to KM’s encyclopedic knowledge of hulls anytime.The most fun weathercocking was with a hull with a load and with a dog… She STOOD in the bow… This was counterproductive to going downwind.
I could correct this by actually stopping and turning the boat bow downwind… But in the long run I gave up and paddled back to the take out backwards
@kayamedic said:
@Pagayeur said:
Fair enough. I know nothing about kayaks and have never been in a solo canoe that weathercocked on its own. Some action by the paddler was always required. I defer to KM’s encyclopedic knowledge of hulls anytime.The most fun weathercocking was with a hull with a load and with a dog… She STOOD in the bow… This was counterproductive to going downwind.
I could correct this by actually stopping and turning the boat bow downwind… But in the long run I gave up and paddled back to the take out backwards
Tom: the study about pivot points was for cargo ships powered by engines. It doesn’t truly translate to paddled craft. In your Flashfire for instance, the pp probably only moves forward in terms of inches not feet.
@Pagayeur said:
Tom: the study about pivot points was for cargo ships powered by engines. It doesn’t truly translate to paddled craft. In your Flashfire for instance, the pp probably only moves forward in terms of inches not feet.
The Clyde Winter article referenced most specifically addresses the Peripatetic Pivot Point for canoes and Kayaks. If you google the term you will find several other relevant articles with the term applicable to canoes.
Sorry guess I should specifically referenced the study in question. It is the http://superiorpaddling.com/kayak-weathercocking/. The 1/3 of length thing is from a study originally in French done for diesel powered cargo ships. I’m very familiar with Winters article, but actually learned this many years before in an article by John Winters. He is a sailing yacht designer who has applied naval architecture principles to canoes and kayaks. His 1996 book “Shape of the Canoe” discusses the movement of the pp. Winters book is very technical and difficult for the average paddler to understand. He also discusses the effects of wind on maneuverability. Apparently if L is further forward than C a, canoe will turn into the wind. I can find no definition of L or C, so not sure what this means. All I can tell you or anyone else is that I’ve never had a canoe voluntarily turn into the wind, so my empirical experience finds the statement that all canoes turn into the wind to be problematic. But I’ve been wrong many times. I will continue my current successful ways of paddling in the wind. It works for me.
Tom says: This helps explain why it’s so easy to control an Osprey in a quartering tailwind with stern rudder.
The Osprey was designed by John Winters as his personal boat. He says of it: “The Osprey was originally intended as my personal boat. It is what I perceive to be the ideal small solo canoe for Canadian wilderness travel. The designed displacement is adequate for a large paddler on a week long trip, or a smaller paddler for longer trips. Unlike most American solos, this boat is heavily rockered forward with slightly less aft. The combination provides good maneuverability in smaller streams and excellent tracking on open water.”
It is the rockered bow that helps you in a quartering tailwind.
I don’t have an Osprey but have heard from more than one paddler that it is highly temperamental in a stern quaertering cross wind with waves that have a long fetch. Such as the 17 mike fetch of Chesuncook Lake in Maine. ( which is oriented to the wind)
The description of bow rocker applies to many American solos but I think JW was equating Wenonah with American. There are plenty of Am solos with diff rocker a
I got my Wenonah Voyageur from String and have a wind love/hate relationship with it.
Love it: It’s fast, comfortable, hauls me and close to 200 lbs of food, water, camping gear, etc with ease. Since most places I paddle the wind and waves always seem to be in my face the Voyager just glides thru them with little effort.
Hate it: When the wind blows in any direction other than head on it can be a handful and make for a long day of paddling. Once when we were coming back from a camping trip on Aziscohos Lake the wind was blowing hard behind us and it was all I could do to keep it headed downwind. Had to pull over and put everything I had in the canoe behind me to manage to make it back to the putin.
I thought about dragging a sea anchor but don’t like that idea. I am thinking about a small sail (2’×2’) that would be quick and easy to raise/lower on the bow to keep it pointed downwind and maybe catch a free ride for a change.
Kayak_Ken