paddling solo canoes in the wind

I agree with both of you. I agree with Allan that if the boat is weathercocking (you would need perfect trim, symmetrical bow and stern windage and a pinned bow), the stokes described in the video would be a reasonable way to deal with that situation.

I also agree with Pagayeur that the boat in the video, which is significantly bow light, is not going to respond that way. We all know it is going to blow downwind not upwind, requiring the opposite strokes to keep it going straight.

So its a trick question. I don’t know if it is correct to say canoes are designed to weathercock, but under the right conditions they might. It is definitely wrong to say that canoes always turn into the wind.

@eckilson said:
I don’t know if it is correct to say canoes are designed to weathercock

I think good canoes are designed not to suffer from lee helm, but from that I wouldn’t say that canoes are designed to weather helm.

Bow into the wind is way preferable to across the trough in three foot waves. Dramamine please!
Oh and boats may not be DESIGNED to weathercock but the execution of unmolding has released at least one unpleasant surprise. The Aquaterra Spectrum weather cocked when you looked at it. Spoke to the designer who said it was not supposed to do that but when the poly came out of the mold the stern sprang.

Fair enough. I know nothing about kayaks and have never been in a solo canoe that weathercocked on its own. Some action by the paddler was always required. I defer to KM’s encyclopedic knowledge of hulls anytime.

My Sawyer Summersong will weathercock if I have my sliding seat is all the way back, if I slide up a bit the weathercocking diminishes. I normally paddle with a double blade in the canoe and that makes it easier for me in high winds and I don’t have to twist my wrist. Trimming the boat is key.

@Pagayeur said:
Fair enough. I know nothing about kayaks and have never been in a solo canoe that weathercocked on its own. Some action by the paddler was always required. I defer to KM’s encyclopedic knowledge of hulls anytime.

The most fun weathercocking was with a hull with a load and with a dog… She STOOD in the bow… This was counterproductive to going downwind.

I could correct this by actually stopping and turning the boat bow downwind… But in the long run I gave up and paddled back to the take out backwards

Here’s a link that describes the phenomenon that yknpdlr brought up, the moving pivot point. It says that the pivot point in a stationary boat is approximately at the center of gravity of the boat+load but that when up to cruising speed the pivot point moves forward to about 1/3 of the boat length from the bow. That is huge! So in a 15 foot solo the pivot point might move 1-2 feet forward from dead rest to full cruise speed(!!!). In one of yknpdlr’s long boats the pivot point might shift like 3-4 feet. So I may not be able to offset this even with the full range of the sliding seats in my Swift solos, and yknpdlr’s whole crew might need to scoot back a good 3 feet or more to avoid spinning out.

I was not even aware of this phenomenon. The basic physics seems to be a high pressure zone building up around the bow of a moving boat and a low pressure zone in the rear from the “loose” displaced water which makes the bow extra sticky relative to the stern and moves the effective pivot point forward. I think the rest of the physics is more intuitive…the wind and water pushing against the side of a boat will try to make it rotate about its pivot point.

This helps explain why it’s so easy to control an Osprey in a quartering tailwind with stern rudder. It also gives me a hint around why I used to sometimes spin out in my Flashfire during a sprint.

https://clydewinter.wordpress.com/2006/08/06/ithe-peripatetic-pivot-point/

Here’s another link that talks about kayak weather cocking and the impact of the moving pivot point.

http://superiorpaddling.com/kayak-weathercocking/

@canonymous said:

@eckilson said:
I don’t know if it is correct to say canoes are designed to weathercock

I think good canoes are designed not to suffer from lee helm, but from that I wouldn’t say that canoes are designed to weather helm.

@eckilson said:
I agree with both of you. I agree with Allan that if the boat is weathercocking (you would need perfect trim, symmetrical bow and stern windage and a pinned bow), the stokes described in the video would be a reasonable way to deal with that situation.

I also agree with Pagayeur that the boat in the video, which is significantly bow light, is not going to respond that way. We all know it is going to blow downwind not upwind, requiring the opposite strokes to keep it going straight.

So its a trick question. I don’t know if it is correct to say canoes are designed to weathercock, but under the right conditions they might. It is definitely wrong to say that canoes always turn into the wind.

@kayamedic said:

@Pagayeur said:
Fair enough. I know nothing about kayaks and have never been in a solo canoe that weathercocked on its own. Some action by the paddler was always required. I defer to KM’s encyclopedic knowledge of hulls anytime.

The most fun weathercocking was with a hull with a load and with a dog… She STOOD in the bow… This was counterproductive to going downwind.

I could correct this by actually stopping and turning the boat bow downwind… But in the long run I gave up and paddled back to the take out backwards

@kayamedic said:

@Pagayeur said:
Fair enough. I know nothing about kayaks and have never been in a solo canoe that weathercocked on its own. Some action by the paddler was always required. I defer to KM’s encyclopedic knowledge of hulls anytime.

The most fun weathercocking was with a hull with a load and with a dog… She STOOD in the bow… This was counterproductive to going downwind.

I could correct this by actually stopping and turning the boat bow downwind… But in the long run I gave up and paddled back to the take out backwards

Tom: the study about pivot points was for cargo ships powered by engines. It doesn’t truly translate to paddled craft. In your Flashfire for instance, the pp probably only moves forward in terms of inches not feet.

@Pagayeur said:

Tom: the study about pivot points was for cargo ships powered by engines. It doesn’t truly translate to paddled craft. In your Flashfire for instance, the pp probably only moves forward in terms of inches not feet.

The Clyde Winter article referenced most specifically addresses the Peripatetic Pivot Point for canoes and Kayaks. If you google the term you will find several other relevant articles with the term applicable to canoes.

Sorry guess I should specifically referenced the study in question. It is the http://superiorpaddling.com/kayak-weathercocking/. The 1/3 of length thing is from a study originally in French done for diesel powered cargo ships. I’m very familiar with Winters article, but actually learned this many years before in an article by John Winters. He is a sailing yacht designer who has applied naval architecture principles to canoes and kayaks. His 1996 book “Shape of the Canoe” discusses the movement of the pp. Winters book is very technical and difficult for the average paddler to understand. He also discusses the effects of wind on maneuverability. Apparently if L is further forward than C a, canoe will turn into the wind. I can find no definition of L or C, so not sure what this means. All I can tell you or anyone else is that I’ve never had a canoe voluntarily turn into the wind, so my empirical experience finds the statement that all canoes turn into the wind to be problematic. But I’ve been wrong many times. I will continue my current successful ways of paddling in the wind. It works for me.

Tom says: This helps explain why it’s so easy to control an Osprey in a quartering tailwind with stern rudder.
The Osprey was designed by John Winters as his personal boat. He says of it: “The Osprey was originally intended as my personal boat. It is what I perceive to be the ideal small solo canoe for Canadian wilderness travel. The designed displacement is adequate for a large paddler on a week long trip, or a smaller paddler for longer trips. Unlike most American solos, this boat is heavily rockered forward with slightly less aft. The combination provides good maneuverability in smaller streams and excellent tracking on open water.”
It is the rockered bow that helps you in a quartering tailwind.

I don’t have an Osprey but have heard from more than one paddler that it is highly temperamental in a stern quaertering cross wind with waves that have a long fetch. Such as the 17 mike fetch of Chesuncook Lake in Maine. ( which is oriented to the wind)
The description of bow rocker applies to many American solos but I think JW was equating Wenonah with American. There are plenty of Am solos with diff rocker a

I got my Wenonah Voyageur from String and have a wind love/hate relationship with it.

Love it: It’s fast, comfortable, hauls me and close to 200 lbs of food, water, camping gear, etc with ease. Since most places I paddle the wind and waves always seem to be in my face the Voyager just glides thru them with little effort.

Hate it: When the wind blows in any direction other than head on it can be a handful and make for a long day of paddling. Once when we were coming back from a camping trip on Aziscohos Lake the wind was blowing hard behind us and it was all I could do to keep it headed downwind. Had to pull over and put everything I had in the canoe behind me to manage to make it back to the putin.

I thought about dragging a sea anchor but don’t like that idea. I am thinking about a small sail (2’×2’) that would be quick and easy to raise/lower on the bow to keep it pointed downwind and maybe catch a free ride for a change.

Kayak_Ken

Be careful with your expectations regarding a sail. My bet is that putting the sail at the front end won’t do much to reduce the boat’s tendency to skid or veer into a sideways-to-the-wind orientation, but you’ll be going a lot faster when it happens than what you’ve experienced so far! I have a sail that I bought for cruising upstream on a big river here, a river that’s notorious for strong headwinds when traveling in the normal direction, but my experience surfing on lake waves has taught me that I need a way to drop the sail “right now” as soon as boat control gets iffy. My plan is to have the sail held upright with a single line ending in a small metal hook linked to a loop around my waist, so that a light swat at the hook with one hand will instantly disconnect it and let the sail drop. I’ve used a less-elaborate method using rope only (no hardware), and have figured out that the principle is sound, and that a very simple quick release is definitely necessary.

Consider a cam cleat for quick release.

Well it’s a fun topic and I appreciate everyone’s comments. Yknpdlr thank you and I will google and study some more, I am just curious to get some practical sense of how far a canoe’s pivot center might move in real world conditions.

As far as the Osprey I don’t know why it is so unusually tail-happy in quartering tailwinds. It’s a unique boat in many ways. Rated 2 inches rocker front and 1 in back…but spins like a Wildfire on forward maneuvers. On calm water it responds to the most subtle nuance of paddle input…during every phase of the stroke. The hull does not have any bulge in the middle…the sides are almost straight. You can lay it over right to the rail and it does not resist. It’s almost like the boat is unstable and just waiting to turn ( a bit like a composite Rendezvous). This is my 2nd Osprey because I absolutely love it. I had a heavier one with skid plates in the past.

So pagayeur you have been sandbagging, but that’s ok. I still have to challenge you…it sure does not seem like it is the bow rocker on the Osprey that ultimately let’s you recover from a near spin-out in a tailwind. I’ve had so many solos on exactly the same stretch of river with strong tailwinds and all are more controllable with forward strokes than the Osprey…some boats with more rocker and some with less. Then again rocker measurements are not standardized are they? My Osprey and Shearwater both paddle like they have more rocker than advertised.

That video lost me at “all canoes are designed to weathercock”. I forced myself to watch the rest, and still have a problem with it because the solution to weathercocking is going to depend a lot on hull speed, wind speed, and whether other things can be adjusted (the obvious one being trim).

What I haven’t seen mentioned here yet is the fact that when compensating for a strong sidewind blowing the boat off-course, some weathercocking may be preferable, resulting in essentially “ferrying” across the wind. In this case, the hull speed through the water falls and can drop to a point that the stern isn’t loose anymore, and if continued in that direction, the boat will be pushed sideways to the wind. As we have all experienced, finding a balance point is key - and different canoes/loads/paddler combinations will experience a different result.

The degree of angle against the hull in the desired direction of travel is also going to make a difference. For instance, my Sojourn shows very little tendency to weathercock at anything close to 90° to the wind or going into it (unless I am sprinting, which I don’t do much - especially in wind), but put that wind on the rear quarter and make it strong enough to get me really moving (as in the case that I’m not paddling anymore, but simply ruddering at speed) and yes, the stern is loose enough to want to weathercock. In this case though, nothing I would call a “stroke” is going to correct.

The worst case I have experienced with this in the Sojourn was paddling upstream against current with my back to the a strong wind with a lot of fetch. But then, that involved troughs and peaks, which added another dynamic, as well as the slowing effect of the water current.

It’s all just not as simple as the video suggests.

In the case of a forward mounted sail that GBG mentions, I would expect that the cure for the loose stern would be to move weight aft and rudder lake crazy. If I am not mistaken, that is the usual method for sailboats going dead-downwind under spinnaker (I’ve never used a spinnaker, but I’ve watched them in use).

Oh yeah - towing a canoe causing a loose stern…why would you not use a bridle under the hull, the same way one does for lining upstream? That is the only safe way to do it, IMO. Just thought I’d mention that for the gallery.

Nicely put. Actually IMO external factors have more to do it than just wind. Many variables such as payload distribution, paddlers ability, speed, waves, hull design, current, heading, and a few I’m probably forgetting.

@Steve_in_Idaho said:
Oh yeah - towing a canoe causing a loose stern…why would you not use a bridle under the hull, the same way one does for lining upstream? That is the only safe way to do it, IMO. Just thought I’d mention that for the gallery.

You are absolutely right about that, Steve. When I had that towing experience, I was on an overnight trip with a small group, and one person cut his finger badly and wanted to get medical attention. Thus, our two best paddlers got the job of putting this guy in the middle of the fastest tandem canoe and taking him a few miles upstream to a town with a hospital. No fun. When a couple of game wardens came by in a power boat, we got them to give us a tow (much to their disappointment since the sun was going down, but being in their line of work they could hardly refuse, poor guys). The canoe we were in barely had enough rope on board to fashion a tow line when combined with the little bit of rope the game wardens had, so a bridle was out of the question, and we surely hadn’t anticipated getting a tow. It would have been interesting to see how much better a bridle would have worked.