Do Kayak sails slow paddling?

I understand when I hold up my big blade paddles to grab air it’s a good feeling. Would not mind having a 30’ sail boat but I know squat. I would like to get a ride in 30-40’ sail boat in rough water.

I thought you were seriously deliberate about the choice of your word, “pull”, Paddledog. So many people think the wind only pushes the sail.

Well I know it will pull like an airplane wing foil on one side like a wing creates lift. High pressure on one side on lower bottom. Lower pressure on longer side. Different travel speeds of air top & bottom. But still do not know much about actually sailing.

I like America’s Cup and Volvo Ocean racing. There it’s easy to see sails are not always pushed.

@PaddleDog52 said:
Well I know it will pull like an airplane wing foil on one side like a wing creates lift. High pressure on one side on lower bottom. Lower pressure on longer side. Different travel speeds of air top & bottom. But still do not know much about actually sailing.

That’s more than a good start!

The 2018 Everglades Challenge was in strong downwind conditions this year, and I found a well/sailed and paddled sailing kayak to be unbeatable .

A new class 1 record for the 300 mile race was set by Bob Waters (Busted Rudder) using a kayakpro Marlin and a modified flat earth sail. I managed a distant second place (no sail). I must confess that I experienced “sail envy” as Bob and others skimmed along, hardly paddling, while I was keeping my best paddling pace, bone-tired, with many hours / miles to go. I got ahead of the other sailing kayaks only by getting minimal sleep and paddling through the night multiple times (finally requiring a big block of sleep to recover).

I don’t plan on using a sail for future events, but would like to run a faster class 2 kayak (racing kayak class), if I can find one with just the right amount of stability (or use something like a Huki Gull-wing for support).

Image below is of my stock 18X Ultra and Bob’s customized Flat earth sail, loading the kayaks in preparation for the start.

@gstamer
“Distant second place”??? Not in my book. You were the first solo kayak to arrive at KL solely by your own power with no assistance from a sail. That’s the purest form of competition in the race and I think the most difficult.

You also paddled the 300+ miles in 3 days, 23 hours (breaking your own previous records) and arrived at the finish before 20+ some sailboats. That’s crazy fast, mind boggling, and I’m awestruck.

Your tracker avatar is spot on. Mega accolades!

Should be separate classes. Good job!

Any chance of doing the EC, with your Valley Rapier 20?

Thanks Rookie and paddleDog52. The winner, Bob Waters is a good friend of my mine and he did a terrific job and is both a excellent paddler and sailor. Class 2 doesn’t allow sails, but that’s really the class for racing kayaks. I’d like to see a class 1 with sails, and another without, but will probably try class 2 next year to avoid those pesky sails.

It was a somber year with multiple sailboat rescues and the tragic death of Thad Rice (Blue Jay) who died of a heart-attack during the event (he was paddling a Kruger). While I can’t think of a better way to go, Thad was only in his early forties. His wife gave a moving address at the awards ceremony and was amazingly strong, but it was heartbreaking.

I’ve been thinking about Thad Rice since the shock of the announcement on the WT forum last Saturday. Some things in life make no sense. His wife’s comments on the WT forum today gave me tears; she has amazing strength for such a loss.

It’s fitting that he was given a honorary check-in and finish in the record and log book. Yet sad beyond words.

God bless Thad Rice, family, & friends.

Medawgone,

Very good question! I trained for most of the year in a Rapier 20 and love the speed and responsiveness, but during trials in the gulf, even a modest swell made it impossible to pop to the skirt to eat or pee, without deploying a paddle float, to prevent a capsize. Unlike a surf ski, you can’t just plop your legs in the water to become stable. The lack of stability (at only 17.75" wide) is a serious drawback to a multi-day race like this where you might actually fall asleep in your kayak, or at least you need to put your head down for a few moments.

When you really get sleep deprived and your core gets tired, you need for the kayak to take care of you. The Rapier is great until your core gives out, then you are in trouble as the kayak dips and wallows under you, especially at night, in large seas.

The Rapier 20 is completely rudder dependent (very little stern pressure) – should the rudder break in strong quartering winds, and as far offshore as I frequently am, it would be very difficult to control the kayak and return to safety. In contrast, I can easily control the 18X without the rudder. The whiz-rod on my Rapier SmartTrack rudder broke during my last trials in the Gulf, making it impossible to raise the rudder. At that point I decided to go with my Epic 18X Ultra for this year.

Unless more “butt time” fixes these drawbacks for me I’m pondering ways to add a simple stabilizing system or even going “whole hog” on something like a Huki Gull Wing. A surfski with a Gull Wing was used by Santos to win the MR340 twice. That would be an interesting solution, even though I don’t like having “training wheels” (being a minimalist) :smile:

Greg

I have been more than impressed with your showings in the EC Greg! Congrats. Tragic about Thad Rice. If I ever enter it will be in the Wayfarer 16 sailboat I recently purchased. Doubt I could finish in the allotted time in my sea kayak. I also am not really interested in racing. My joy comes from the sense of adventure and discovery. I am always tempted to stop and explore or just take a closer look at things. Still what an excellent thing you are capable of to put your body through and still accomplish what you set out to do! I have read about the difficulties that solo sailors racing around the world have with sleep deprivation. I like my sleep to much! :wink: Just put me in a boat be it a kayak, canoe, or sailboat, and I am a happy man.

The Rapier may not be suited, for the EC. But, it still made your Prius look fast. Does WT class 2 ever have any race boats. Most singles seem to be Epic 18s, QCCs, Stellar 18s and other sea kayaks without sails. Has there been any successful exotics in class 2 , like West Side Boats etc. ?

Class 2 (racing kayaks/canoes, no sails allowed) has seen surf skis (solo and double), and Carter Johnson held the record for awhile in a Huki S1-X surf ski. Carter wrote an interesting account of his 2007 race at http://race.fit2paddle.com/C741445042/E20070314202642/index.html, He wrote of “throwing panic braces in the dark” and seemed to suggest that a fast kayak might be a better choice (my interpretation).

I approached Doug Bushnell of West Side Boats shops and in his opinion the EFT was his best design for a race like the EC (somewhat faster than 18x but still moderate stability). He strongly recommended against designs like the Thunderbolt (for a race like the EC) since some stability is faster in long multi-day races. The EC requires carrying a full camping load (you need hatches) and that precludes many skis/racing kayaks, at least without modification.

The Rapier has good stability on flat water, but doesn’t allow you to pop your skirt and use both hands, on lumpy water – at least without a paddle-float or some kind of support. I’m not ready to write-off the Rapier yet, but need to devise a solution to enhance stability for eating and taking care of necessities.

Most people in class two are in regular class 1 kayaks/canoes who simply don’t want a sail or compete against sails.

Greg

You go faster if you paddle with a sail up but if you are not careful going downwind you can go too fast that you get ahead of the wind. I am not sure of the proper terminology.

I have also had the opposite happen on a light day when paddling hard enough I was able to go fast enough to move the air fast enough across the sail (relative wind) to generate lift.

I was a dinghy sailor before I was a kayaker. I still have to come to terms that my kayak with a sail is a compromised sail craft but an enhanced paddlecraft. I still get the inclination to take the kayak out for a sail but get disappointed when I do…

You need to qualify your question a bit. Some sails are pretty minimal and downwind only. Some are more elaborate and may require a mast and an outrigger or another means to stabilize the boat and reduce side slip. These make your boat more like a conventional sailboat. Many require that your boat have a rudder of some sort.

Beyond that, it obviously all depends on the wind speed and direction. A downwind sail is just that. A more conventional sail cannot go directly into the wind and is generally not very fast going directly downwind.

Whatever the sail, if used in optimal conditions for its design, it will often be just as fast as the same boat without a sail. Keep in mind that most kayakers cannot maintain maximal hull speed indefinitely.

I am a former sailboater who now sails a kayak. When I take my boat out, I say I’m going sailing rather than refer to it as kayaking. My route is determined by the wind. I sail within 70º of the wind direction if I want to move along by sail alone. If I use my paddle as well, I sail to about 45º of the wind. If the sail is no use to me, I just drop it and paddle. Here is a link to a recent outing I had.

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Kayak sailing appears to be quite popular in Australia. In this short clip, the author even demonstrates rolling up with the sail deployed.

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