Nearly impossible to tell without a video. But agree with Grayhawk. Elbows are an unusual joint to hurt. Best to start with getting eyeballs on your form.
check these out and see if any apply . I doubt it is the boat. I have a hunch you are trying very hard now that you have expectations of a faster boat and any poor technique you got away with before in the slow boat is now biting you. https://www.canoekayak.com/skills/how-to-avoid-elbow-and-wrist-tendonitis-for-paddlers/
Total noobs here also— fortunately haven’t had any ill effects from paddling.
My paddling and lifelong partner in mayhem has bad joints (shoulders, elbows and back) from sitting in a car in the passenger side, delivering mail for 35 years. He finds that paddling actually helps with his overall comfort level as long as he is doing that twisty torso move. We try to advise each other when/if we notice the other not rotating the torso on a stroke. Doing so also seems to help with speed. There are times of course, where we are just drifting and any stroke is really more of a directional thing.
Some place on here(I think here) was a video or 3 about the subject.
One suggestion is don’t get hung up on “high angle” paddling. Relax a little, let your arms bend a bit and rotate. You might find it easier to maintain torso rotation if you concentrate more on pushing the blade that is out of the water. You will naturally pull the blade in the water without thinking about it. The worst thing you can do is to slouch–sit up straight.
A lower angle has the benefit of being able to lengthen the stroke without lifting water. In time, you will find what works the best for you and your body will adjust to it. Don’t expect it to happen overnight–it might take years.
Very likely a paddling technique problem and possibly the onset of tendinitis. Elbow pain is common in those performing repetitive motions on a single joint over a period of time. Some things to reduce strain on the elbow.
- paddle from the hips, not the shoulders. Grab the paddle at shoulder width and move it by twisting at the waist, not by pulling/pushing on the paddle with the arms.
- relax the grip on the paddle - you do not need to hold the paddle forcefully, just enough to keep it in control - relax to the point where you are holding it too loosely and just add sufficient force to hold it, not strangle it.
- to enhance power with the hips, press with the offside foot/knee (right foot when paddle is on the left side and vice versa) against (whatever) foot ped/thigh strap is available in the boat
- paddle length can be a factor, but it is not as likely - still a long paddle is like starting from a standing start on a bicycle in too high a gear - it takes a lot of force to get going and all that force is provided by the body, potentially causing stress injuries
With luck, this will mitigate any injury you are doing to your forearm.
Rick
Agree that a lesson or two would be helpful. Not always easy to arrange so in the interim, here’s a link to site which has a well organized approach to the basics, including technique tips and common mistakes. https://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/index.php/homepage/basic-skills
One thing you may want to do is reduce the number of changes. You changed both boat and paddle at some time. How about either using new paddle with old boat, or old paddle with new boat, and see how that goes?
My gut says that the paddle is more likely the issue than the boat, but this is a WAG.
I have arthritic joints and very sensitive elbows. They never hurt when I paddle my Pungo, or my other boats.
Peter has a good point about too many changes at once. Your body has to adapt to unfamiliar stress and movements.
It could be the way you are paddling. Do you understand what it means that your forward stroke should be a push, not a pull? Are you keeping your wrists as straight as possible?
And maybe, your paddle is too wide.
I strongly suspect it ain’t the boat.
My Pungo has been paddled by children, and mature people of both sexes with no issues.
I too suspect poor paddling technique. Your elbows shouldn’t really come into the equation.
And you should be sitting bolt upright so you can best rotate your torso. You should also be keeping your arms as straight as you can. Look up some videos on the forward paddle stroke, or even better take some lessons.
Here’s a good start for video instruction…
My elbows are always part of the equation, since they are between my shoulders and my wrists. Power to my paddle can only get from my legs to my paddle through all of the joints and muscles in between.
Proper technique and proper sized paddle (both length and blade shape/size for paddle) make a huge impact on my paddling comfort.
It took me a couple years and several paddle models and lengths to find what works best for me.
I am going to look through all this before my next trip. I have had a lot on my mind lately with work and think my seat may be too far forward. I will make this simple adjustment and compare it to the Old Town stored right next to it.
I have paddled 20 miles in one day in the old boat and close to that several times. I woke up the next day feeling like I could do this all over again the next day. These couple trips were both 4 miles. I woke up feeling I should wait a week before even considering another trip.
The old paddle is WAY too long as suggested by others in another thread. It is great for the Old Town Vapor but not this. The 220cm is definitely a step in the right direction.
I will look over everything and see if there is anything glaring. I really think I made a simple oversight and have my seat adjusted wrong but will report back.
Conor
I don’t understand the seat comment but the Phase 3 seat is very adjustable so I hope it helps.
I have had many seat issues with several boats, but never my elbows.
The first couple of times out in my Skylark, I was thinking it may have been a mistake. Took a number of short/longer paddles to figure out where I like the seat back , foot pegs even how I snug the straps on the PFD and how it fit with the seat back.
Well, now I guess I’ve been doing it all wrong for all these years. I don’t keep my arms straight and I don’t push on the off-side foot. Oh well–it’s probably too late to change now.
I may have some free time today so will mess with the seat some. I got the kayak a little over a week ago and was dealing with all kinds of stress and nonsense with work. I had one of those crazy as a loon customers I had to deal with along with law enforcement and the courts as well because of this nut. I feel stupid for overlooking the seat. Yeah, it feels pretty nice. I think it was just leaning too far forward and forcing my elbows to bend at a strange angle.
The foot pegs are adjusted properly. They were so far out when I got it that this couldn’t be overlooked.
I will look into my paddling style if the seat adjustment doesn’t work. I really don’t think that is the issue, especially since I have had zero issues with this in my other kayak on long trips. I was also paddling pretty much nonstop at a pretty good speed for about half of one of those long trips. We were running out of daylight and realized we had 10 miles to go so pretty much did the rest of that trip at a sprint. My elbows felt fine during and after this.
Conor
It’s usually taught that you press with the leg/foot that’s on the same side as the blade that’s in the water. This helps you rotate and provides the power. Elbows aren’t Frankenstein straight, but “broken” (some bend). If your elbows bend right away then you are probably “arm paddling” rather than “twisting” and using the power in your core and legs. Have someone take a look at your stroke. You might just need to adjust your footrest, or might need to change your technique. Too many unknowns without seeing a video.
Greg
@gstamer said:
It’s usually taught that you press with the leg/foot that’s on the same side as the blade that’s in the water. This helps you rotate and provides the power. Elbows aren’t Frankenstein straight, but “broken” (some bend). If your elbows bend right away then you are probably “arm paddling” rather than “twisting” and using the power in your core and legs. Have someone take a look at your stroke. You might just need to adjust your footrest, or might need to change your technique. Too many unknowns without seeing a video.Greg
Wow! Thank you Greg; you have restored and validated what I thought I had worked on and believed was working so well. You have saved me a ton of introspection.
Maybe try using it more to check if you’re really feel uncomfortable with it. Then decide after a week if you really want to purchase a new one and sell it.
@magooch said:
@gstamer said:
It’s usually taught that you press with the leg/foot that’s on the same side as the blade that’s in the water. This helps you rotate and provides the power. Elbows aren’t Frankenstein straight, but “broken” (some bend). If your elbows bend right away then you are probably “arm paddling” rather than “twisting” and using the power in your core and legs. Have someone take a look at your stroke. You might just need to adjust your footrest, or might need to change your technique. Too many unknowns without seeing a video.Greg
Wow! Thank you Greg; you have restored and validated what I thought I had worked on and believed was working so well. You have saved me a ton of introspection.
Not to mention some $ .
I have had some time to take this out more and adjusted the seat. This was DEFINITELY the problem without question. I also had to move the foot pegs back a tad as the seat positioning had me leaning far enough forward that this was a concern as well. It took me a while to get things perfect but in the end I wasn’t putting undue stress on my elbows anymore.
That being said, there are still some things about this boat that I am not 100% sure about. I think part of the issue is the stream I have been taking it on. https://fllog.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/float-65-little-piney-creek/ This is about 3 miles from where I live so I tend to go there quite often. You also don’t have to worry about the drunken party crowd that other larger and more popular streams tend to attract. This kayak tracks well and is definitely faster but the Old Town Vapor 10 is probably a better boat for this stream. I found myself dragging quite a bit in the Pungo compared to the Vapor. There was also more water this trip but it seemed like I got stuck on any little rock. Again, I am probably using the wrong boat for this stream. The Vapor also turns a lot better on the tight corners and obstructions you commonly find on this stream. It is a more challenging stream but it is very pretty and you don’t have to deal with the weekend warriors because it is more challenging. I need to take this kayak out on a larger river and I think I will find the tracking to be a nice feature.
The other issue is the space. Again, I think I am taking one of the features of this kayak (narrower so faster and tracks better) into a negative. The space in the Vapor is a lot more usable for the most part but it doesn’t have a dry hatch. I figure I could always put more rigging on the rear and have more cargo on top of the dry hatch as there is a nice flat area. If course there is also room on the front but it isn’t as usable as what is on the rear.
I also bought a flotation bag for the front of this kayak which takes away a lot of the forward storage inside the kayak as well. The Vapor comes with some cheap foam insert and you can still slide anything long or narrow down either side of this. That being said, this setup is really cheesy and the foam is as cheap as it comes. I guess you expect compromises on certain things with this being one of Old Town’s most economical boats.
The other thing is that this is just not a perfect fit for me for some reason. I can’t place the exact issue and maybe some of it is the initial bias I had and the fact I was dealing with a nutcase customer at work as well. It just seems like I feel more comfortable in the Vapor. The shorter paddle definitely helps but that isn’t the only thing. I am definitely going to hang onto this kayak for the time being and see if it grows on me. It is also end-of-season so selling it now would be a mistake. I think selling next spring if I decide to do so would be my best move.
I definitely want to keep my eyes open for a possible replacement and am happy to hear suggestions. I would want a 12’ class boat with decent space for overnight storage. Of course there is the Vapor 12 XT which is just a longer version of my Vapor 10 and has a dry hatch. Then there is the Loon 120 and 126. I am not sure how big of a deal that extra 6 inches is but they are basically the same price. The Loon has been suggested to me by others so I would like to try one out. This is also a common boat so they may come up on the used market. Then there is the Dirigo which also appears to be pretty common.
I always keep an eye on Craigslist and FB Marketplace for kayaks in case a really good deal comes up. I have seen some pretty fair deals but for the most part the used boats are being sold for significantly higher prices than new. I don’t know if any of these actually sell but everything seems to be drastically overpriced and this isn’t just kayaks. I figure around Christmas shopping season people may dump kayaks cheap needing quick money. The problem is that they are probably going to be the basic cheap boats from big box stores (Sun Dolphin, Pelican, etc.) and not what I am looking for. The other issue is all the drama and nutcases you find on online sale sites these days. This seems to be getting worse and I almost think you are better off paying full price rather than deal with some of these people.
Conor