I am not absolutely loving my new WS Pungo 120 - What am I doing wrong?

I don’t understand the seat comment but the Phase 3 seat is very adjustable so I hope it helps.
I have had many seat issues with several boats, but never my elbows.

The first couple of times out in my Skylark, I was thinking it may have been a mistake. Took a number of short/longer paddles to figure out where I like the seat back , foot pegs even how I snug the straps on the PFD and how it fit with the seat back.

Well, now I guess I’ve been doing it all wrong for all these years. I don’t keep my arms straight and I don’t push on the off-side foot. Oh well–it’s probably too late to change now.

I may have some free time today so will mess with the seat some. I got the kayak a little over a week ago and was dealing with all kinds of stress and nonsense with work. I had one of those crazy as a loon customers I had to deal with along with law enforcement and the courts as well because of this nut. I feel stupid for overlooking the seat. Yeah, it feels pretty nice. I think it was just leaning too far forward and forcing my elbows to bend at a strange angle.

The foot pegs are adjusted properly. They were so far out when I got it that this couldn’t be overlooked.

I will look into my paddling style if the seat adjustment doesn’t work. I really don’t think that is the issue, especially since I have had zero issues with this in my other kayak on long trips. I was also paddling pretty much nonstop at a pretty good speed for about half of one of those long trips. We were running out of daylight and realized we had 10 miles to go so pretty much did the rest of that trip at a sprint. My elbows felt fine during and after this.

Conor

It’s usually taught that you press with the leg/foot that’s on the same side as the blade that’s in the water. This helps you rotate and provides the power. Elbows aren’t Frankenstein straight, but “broken” (some bend). If your elbows bend right away then you are probably “arm paddling” rather than “twisting” and using the power in your core and legs. Have someone take a look at your stroke. You might just need to adjust your footrest, or might need to change your technique. Too many unknowns without seeing a video.

Greg

@gstamer said:
It’s usually taught that you press with the leg/foot that’s on the same side as the blade that’s in the water. This helps you rotate and provides the power. Elbows aren’t Frankenstein straight, but “broken” (some bend). If your elbows bend right away then you are probably “arm paddling” rather than “twisting” and using the power in your core and legs. Have someone take a look at your stroke. You might just need to adjust your footrest, or might need to change your technique. Too many unknowns without seeing a video.

Greg

Wow! Thank you Greg; you have restored and validated what I thought I had worked on and believed was working so well. You have saved me a ton of introspection.

Maybe try using it more to check if you’re really feel uncomfortable with it. Then decide after a week if you really want to purchase a new one and sell it.

@magooch said:

@gstamer said:
It’s usually taught that you press with the leg/foot that’s on the same side as the blade that’s in the water. This helps you rotate and provides the power. Elbows aren’t Frankenstein straight, but “broken” (some bend). If your elbows bend right away then you are probably “arm paddling” rather than “twisting” and using the power in your core and legs. Have someone take a look at your stroke. You might just need to adjust your footrest, or might need to change your technique. Too many unknowns without seeing a video.

Greg

Wow! Thank you Greg; you have restored and validated what I thought I had worked on and believed was working so well. You have saved me a ton of introspection.

Not to mention some $ .

I have had some time to take this out more and adjusted the seat. This was DEFINITELY the problem without question. I also had to move the foot pegs back a tad as the seat positioning had me leaning far enough forward that this was a concern as well. It took me a while to get things perfect but in the end I wasn’t putting undue stress on my elbows anymore.

That being said, there are still some things about this boat that I am not 100% sure about. I think part of the issue is the stream I have been taking it on. https://fllog.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/float-65-little-piney-creek/ This is about 3 miles from where I live so I tend to go there quite often. You also don’t have to worry about the drunken party crowd that other larger and more popular streams tend to attract. This kayak tracks well and is definitely faster but the Old Town Vapor 10 is probably a better boat for this stream. I found myself dragging quite a bit in the Pungo compared to the Vapor. There was also more water this trip but it seemed like I got stuck on any little rock. Again, I am probably using the wrong boat for this stream. The Vapor also turns a lot better on the tight corners and obstructions you commonly find on this stream. It is a more challenging stream but it is very pretty and you don’t have to deal with the weekend warriors because it is more challenging. I need to take this kayak out on a larger river and I think I will find the tracking to be a nice feature.

The other issue is the space. Again, I think I am taking one of the features of this kayak (narrower so faster and tracks better) into a negative. The space in the Vapor is a lot more usable for the most part but it doesn’t have a dry hatch. I figure I could always put more rigging on the rear and have more cargo on top of the dry hatch as there is a nice flat area. If course there is also room on the front but it isn’t as usable as what is on the rear.

I also bought a flotation bag for the front of this kayak which takes away a lot of the forward storage inside the kayak as well. The Vapor comes with some cheap foam insert and you can still slide anything long or narrow down either side of this. That being said, this setup is really cheesy and the foam is as cheap as it comes. I guess you expect compromises on certain things with this being one of Old Town’s most economical boats.

The other thing is that this is just not a perfect fit for me for some reason. I can’t place the exact issue and maybe some of it is the initial bias I had and the fact I was dealing with a nutcase customer at work as well. It just seems like I feel more comfortable in the Vapor. The shorter paddle definitely helps but that isn’t the only thing. I am definitely going to hang onto this kayak for the time being and see if it grows on me. It is also end-of-season so selling it now would be a mistake. I think selling next spring if I decide to do so would be my best move.

I definitely want to keep my eyes open for a possible replacement and am happy to hear suggestions. I would want a 12’ class boat with decent space for overnight storage. Of course there is the Vapor 12 XT which is just a longer version of my Vapor 10 and has a dry hatch. Then there is the Loon 120 and 126. I am not sure how big of a deal that extra 6 inches is but they are basically the same price. The Loon has been suggested to me by others so I would like to try one out. This is also a common boat so they may come up on the used market. Then there is the Dirigo which also appears to be pretty common.

I always keep an eye on Craigslist and FB Marketplace for kayaks in case a really good deal comes up. I have seen some pretty fair deals but for the most part the used boats are being sold for significantly higher prices than new. I don’t know if any of these actually sell but everything seems to be drastically overpriced and this isn’t just kayaks. I figure around Christmas shopping season people may dump kayaks cheap needing quick money. The problem is that they are probably going to be the basic cheap boats from big box stores (Sun Dolphin, Pelican, etc.) and not what I am looking for. The other issue is all the drama and nutcases you find on online sale sites these days. This seems to be getting worse and I almost think you are better off paying full price rather than deal with some of these people.

Conor

Regarding that maneuverability issue, my first thought would be that no one who starts out paddling has much of a clue how to maneuver effectively, and that is probably true for you. I would wager that your Pungo will “turn” a lot better than you are aware right now (I hate words like “turn” and “steer” because they imply a very limited set of possibilities in terms of how to accomplish tight maneuvers - which is exactly the problem most average boaters actually have). You may do better in a more maneuverable boat, but don’t dismiss the idea that you can probably make this current boat run rings around itself if comparing beginner’s skills with better skills.

Huh, I don’t know where you live but I have been buying and selling used kayaks and canoes (as well as household items and cars) for ten years, mostly via Craigslist, and have never encountered a “nut case”.

Question: why are you limiting yourself to 12’ boats if you intend to do overnight touring and want more cargo space? Boats 14’ and up generally have dual cargo hatches. You already have a short boat to use on shallow winding streams, why not upgrade to something that has more utility? I have always been able to find decent 14’ to 17’ used touring kayaks for $500 or less via Craigslist.

That is probably true. I spent about the 1st half of this trip yesterday tweaking and tuning the seat and foot peg settings. That is why I am not in a rush to do anything rash in regards to replacing this. I want to make sure that I really want to replace it before doing anything rash. I am sure the issues with my first two trips have skewed my opinion of this as well.

The thing appealing about the Old Town Loon is that it is naturally buoyant because of whatever 3 layer construction they use. These get really good ratings by users for a recreational boat but are definitely towards the heavier end of things. This isn’t a big deal but something to consider. No front flotation is required because of this construction so the forward part of the hull is available for storage of dry bags, things you don’t mind getting wet stored loose, etc.

The reasons I am kinda wanting to stick with a 12 foot class boat are several. 1. Storage: I am setup pretty well for storing a 10-12 footer but a 14 footer might be a little more of an issue. I know I could make this work so this is the least of my concerns. 2. Transport: I think that this would be a big issue as I don’t have a good setup for transporting one this long. I would probably have to buy a trailer which I could do but that just adds complexity to the trips and shuttling as one would have to make an extra trip to retrieve the trailer. On longer trips the shuttle time can be an hour or more one way because of all the backroads and the fact that the river distance is considerably shorter than the driving distance. The last thing I want to have to do is make an extra run for a trailer. 3. The rivers we usually do. I usually do shallow rocky bottom spring fed streams of the Missouri Ozarks. The Little Piney is a special case and a tad more challenging than most but still think a 14 footer might be a tad longer than ideal for many of the streams around here. These are the reasons I would prefer a 12 foot class. Again, maybe a 14 footer would be fine.

As for online sale sites, I have had my share of issues. I live in the Ozarks of Missouri which are home to some great kayaking streams such as the Current, Eleven Point, and Jacks Fork Rivers. The Little Piney (one three miles from me) is like a miniature version of these streams. The downside to the Ozarks is that many the stereotypes about people being on meth, opiods, and the like are true. Drugs are a big problem. You also end up with lots of people on government assistance. I also own my own business so am exposed to the general public on a daily basis. I actually have helped reduce issues by marketing towards a more affluent and educated demographic.

I think Craigslist is probably a step up from FM Marketplace but still haven’t seen any deals on kayaks yet. There was a funny one a month or so back being passed around the local kayak groups… Someone was selling a pair of Sun Dolphin Aruba 10’s for $850. These are $125 at Wal-Mart. Stuff like this is very common on FB Marketplace. There was an $80 TV from Wal-Mart that took a few minutes to warm up and turn on, then there were lines on the screen for a few minutes after that. They wanted $400 for it. You also have to deal with people who want what you have but don’t have the money to pay for it. I think FB Market is where the issues come from for the most part. You also have the antisocial people who will not call and just waste tons of time but never follow through. I only accept phone calls now for this reason and that filters that nonsense out.

I had some real dandies this summer. Part of this was that I was selling off some project or fixer upper type stuff that still had value but needed work to be made serviceable. I have pretty much come to realize that selling stuff like this is going to attract more nuts.

Conor

You talk about carrying capacity. Why not a canoe?
Sorry if that has been addressed.

Cwatkin, I think you should give the Pungo more time. I agree with the suggestion that you might do better with a 14-footer. You would have more capacity for gear, and a 14-footer can be made to turn well enough for twisty streams that are not too pushy. But if you limit your gear to the same degree you might as a backpacker - or close to that - you can do multi-night trips in the 12’ Pungo.

As to your comparison with the Vapor 10…

The shorter boat will likely turn easier, all else being equal. It will also not track as well, again, all else being equal. Since I haven’t been around any 10’ Vapor I am aware of, I can’t say whether all else is equal in this case, but the important thing to know is that skill will make the difference less of an issue - or possibly not an issue at all.

As far as the dragging in shallows…
Again, I’m not familiar with the Vapor, but if it has flatter bottom, it may be less prone to dragging on shoals. But it is also true that different levels of flow change the river in sometimes unexpected ways. That is another reason you need more time in the boat.

In case I didn’t already mention it - the 12’ Pungo is one of the more popular recreational kayaks around here for small meandering streams (I know several owners personally). And it is similar to the 12’ Wilderness Chesapeake my wife paddles. It is based on that and my own experience in the Chesapeake that I am confident in the fact that the 12’ Pungo can be easily made to maneuver well in tight and twisty non-pushy streams.

All that having been said - I am also wondering the same thing String asks…why not a canoe? If your waters are the typical class 1 streams in which recreational kayaks are suitable, a canoe may be even more suitable…with the added benefit that it is easier to get in and out when working around shoals.

Oh, BTW - the 3 layer construction of some of the Old Town kayaks keeps the empty swamped boat from sinking to the bottom, but doesn’t help much in any kind of rescue. Without bulkheads fore and aft, you still need added flotation to be safe in in any conditions that might induce a swamp.

It seems that you misunderstand the purpose of flotation bags and also are confused about the “buoyancy” of the Loon. The purpose of inflation bags is to displace water from filling the hull in a capsize, which is what bulkheaded hatches do in higher quality short and nearly all longer boats.

The Loon is going to fill just as full as any boat made of ANY material that is the same size. I don’t know where you got that odd notion but there is nothing magical (or “naturally buoyant”) about the material that they use for their hull. In fact the Loon will swamp and either sink or at least be unmanageable to re-enter in deep water when full of water. The 3 layer poly is for strength, not buoyancy. The Loon is no more “buoyant” than any other open-hulled rec boat and it will become a lead weight when full of water, especially since it is such a wide and deep barge of a boat.

Just saying, it would be an error to base any preference for the Loon on a complete misunderstanding about “buoyancy”.

@cwatkin said:
2. Transport: I think that this would be a big issue as I don’t have a good setup for transporting one this long. I would probably have to buy a trailer which I could do but that just adds complexity to the trips and shuttling as one would have to make an extra trip to retrieve the trailer.

I don’t see the problem with this one. I used to paddle with a friend who regularly carried a 17’ boat on his Mini. There are more extreme examples of this, I’m sure.

If (and I recognize this has yet to be determined) you aren’t happy with what a short boat has to offer, you need to make some concessions and get creative to enjoy a long boat. There’s no way to make the short one perform the same.

Yes, I agree with Sparky. A friend of mine used to transport her daughter’s 21’ long surf ski on top of a SmartCar. ( I do have to admit it looked like a shark humping a watermelon.) And I carry a 15’ and 18’ kayak on the roof of my small Mazda wagon all the time. Longer boats can be narrower and still have enough displacement (volume displacement is what creates buoyancy) and are a lot easier to load on roof racks than short fat boats.

This is all good information. I am definitely going to give the WS Pungo 120 some more time. As mentioned, I think I have decided to take it out the first few times on a stream more suited to a rec boat that can turn on a dime like the Vapor. Yes, the Vapor has a flatter bottom and doesn’t track nearly as well as the Pungo on open stretches. I think using the Vapor for this stream, especially the upper parts, will be my plan from now on. I am sure I will enjoy the Pungo a lot more once I take it on a more suitable river.

The reasons for me looking at a Loon are because of an overall first good impression with another Old Town product as well as the fact this one and the Pungo are rated well with some preferring the Loon. It looks to be more of a “barge” as described which is what the Vapor basically is as well.

I was unaware that the 3 layer construction wasn’t for buoyancy. Yeah, I know having to recover a swamped boat isn’t a lot of fun no matter what and this would be a larger boat than my Vapor 10 so become even more of a lead weight. Has anyone here ever been in a swamping situation on a Loon or not? I am just curious. The models I looked at at least had a rear dry hatch as well. I did just find some reviews that indicate it will stay floating but just below the surface. Many suggested the use of empty soda or other plastic bottles in mesh bags if you don’t like the intrusiveness of float bladders to displace water. I have put scraps of foam board insulation into some cheaper kayaks as well because they come with NOTHING. I figure this is what I will do when the cheesy factory floatation comes out of my Vapor 10.

For the most part I go with a group of people who all have 10-12 ft class kayaks. We transport them in the beds of pickup trucks. I know canoes and longer kayaks can hold more but I don’t want to be the odd man that brings a difficult kayak to transport. This wouldn’t be a problem on my local stream as I have the 10 ft Vapor but could be an issue on the longer trips where other people are involved.

As for the secondary market, I am sure that a Loon would be a lot easier to find than a Vapor 12. I have never seen a Vapor 12 anywhere except on websites while the Vapor 10 appears to be the basic line of Old Town at all the big box sporting goods stores and such so they are EVERYWHERE.

I wouldn’t buy another 10 ft kayak as I have the Vapor 10 as well as a cheapo spare that I might or might not sell. It is always good to have an extra for when that friend without a kayak wants to go at the last minute. I would definitely at least like to try out a Loon 120 or 126 because they look like nice boats. Again, I am not in any huge hurry and figure the Pungo might grow on me after the initial growing pains.

Conor

If turning your boat is your main problem, learn to do an angled bow rudder and lean away from your turn. Stern rudderIng is a waste of inertia