I am not absolutely loving my new WS Pungo 120 - What am I doing wrong?

Regarding that maneuverability issue, my first thought would be that no one who starts out paddling has much of a clue how to maneuver effectively, and that is probably true for you. I would wager that your Pungo will “turn” a lot better than you are aware right now (I hate words like “turn” and “steer” because they imply a very limited set of possibilities in terms of how to accomplish tight maneuvers - which is exactly the problem most average boaters actually have). You may do better in a more maneuverable boat, but don’t dismiss the idea that you can probably make this current boat run rings around itself if comparing beginner’s skills with better skills.

Huh, I don’t know where you live but I have been buying and selling used kayaks and canoes (as well as household items and cars) for ten years, mostly via Craigslist, and have never encountered a “nut case”.

Question: why are you limiting yourself to 12’ boats if you intend to do overnight touring and want more cargo space? Boats 14’ and up generally have dual cargo hatches. You already have a short boat to use on shallow winding streams, why not upgrade to something that has more utility? I have always been able to find decent 14’ to 17’ used touring kayaks for $500 or less via Craigslist.

That is probably true. I spent about the 1st half of this trip yesterday tweaking and tuning the seat and foot peg settings. That is why I am not in a rush to do anything rash in regards to replacing this. I want to make sure that I really want to replace it before doing anything rash. I am sure the issues with my first two trips have skewed my opinion of this as well.

The thing appealing about the Old Town Loon is that it is naturally buoyant because of whatever 3 layer construction they use. These get really good ratings by users for a recreational boat but are definitely towards the heavier end of things. This isn’t a big deal but something to consider. No front flotation is required because of this construction so the forward part of the hull is available for storage of dry bags, things you don’t mind getting wet stored loose, etc.

The reasons I am kinda wanting to stick with a 12 foot class boat are several. 1. Storage: I am setup pretty well for storing a 10-12 footer but a 14 footer might be a little more of an issue. I know I could make this work so this is the least of my concerns. 2. Transport: I think that this would be a big issue as I don’t have a good setup for transporting one this long. I would probably have to buy a trailer which I could do but that just adds complexity to the trips and shuttling as one would have to make an extra trip to retrieve the trailer. On longer trips the shuttle time can be an hour or more one way because of all the backroads and the fact that the river distance is considerably shorter than the driving distance. The last thing I want to have to do is make an extra run for a trailer. 3. The rivers we usually do. I usually do shallow rocky bottom spring fed streams of the Missouri Ozarks. The Little Piney is a special case and a tad more challenging than most but still think a 14 footer might be a tad longer than ideal for many of the streams around here. These are the reasons I would prefer a 12 foot class. Again, maybe a 14 footer would be fine.

As for online sale sites, I have had my share of issues. I live in the Ozarks of Missouri which are home to some great kayaking streams such as the Current, Eleven Point, and Jacks Fork Rivers. The Little Piney (one three miles from me) is like a miniature version of these streams. The downside to the Ozarks is that many the stereotypes about people being on meth, opiods, and the like are true. Drugs are a big problem. You also end up with lots of people on government assistance. I also own my own business so am exposed to the general public on a daily basis. I actually have helped reduce issues by marketing towards a more affluent and educated demographic.

I think Craigslist is probably a step up from FM Marketplace but still haven’t seen any deals on kayaks yet. There was a funny one a month or so back being passed around the local kayak groups… Someone was selling a pair of Sun Dolphin Aruba 10’s for $850. These are $125 at Wal-Mart. Stuff like this is very common on FB Marketplace. There was an $80 TV from Wal-Mart that took a few minutes to warm up and turn on, then there were lines on the screen for a few minutes after that. They wanted $400 for it. You also have to deal with people who want what you have but don’t have the money to pay for it. I think FB Market is where the issues come from for the most part. You also have the antisocial people who will not call and just waste tons of time but never follow through. I only accept phone calls now for this reason and that filters that nonsense out.

I had some real dandies this summer. Part of this was that I was selling off some project or fixer upper type stuff that still had value but needed work to be made serviceable. I have pretty much come to realize that selling stuff like this is going to attract more nuts.

Conor

You talk about carrying capacity. Why not a canoe?
Sorry if that has been addressed.

Cwatkin, I think you should give the Pungo more time. I agree with the suggestion that you might do better with a 14-footer. You would have more capacity for gear, and a 14-footer can be made to turn well enough for twisty streams that are not too pushy. But if you limit your gear to the same degree you might as a backpacker - or close to that - you can do multi-night trips in the 12’ Pungo.

As to your comparison with the Vapor 10…

The shorter boat will likely turn easier, all else being equal. It will also not track as well, again, all else being equal. Since I haven’t been around any 10’ Vapor I am aware of, I can’t say whether all else is equal in this case, but the important thing to know is that skill will make the difference less of an issue - or possibly not an issue at all.

As far as the dragging in shallows…
Again, I’m not familiar with the Vapor, but if it has flatter bottom, it may be less prone to dragging on shoals. But it is also true that different levels of flow change the river in sometimes unexpected ways. That is another reason you need more time in the boat.

In case I didn’t already mention it - the 12’ Pungo is one of the more popular recreational kayaks around here for small meandering streams (I know several owners personally). And it is similar to the 12’ Wilderness Chesapeake my wife paddles. It is based on that and my own experience in the Chesapeake that I am confident in the fact that the 12’ Pungo can be easily made to maneuver well in tight and twisty non-pushy streams.

All that having been said - I am also wondering the same thing String asks…why not a canoe? If your waters are the typical class 1 streams in which recreational kayaks are suitable, a canoe may be even more suitable…with the added benefit that it is easier to get in and out when working around shoals.

Oh, BTW - the 3 layer construction of some of the Old Town kayaks keeps the empty swamped boat from sinking to the bottom, but doesn’t help much in any kind of rescue. Without bulkheads fore and aft, you still need added flotation to be safe in in any conditions that might induce a swamp.

It seems that you misunderstand the purpose of flotation bags and also are confused about the “buoyancy” of the Loon. The purpose of inflation bags is to displace water from filling the hull in a capsize, which is what bulkheaded hatches do in higher quality short and nearly all longer boats.

The Loon is going to fill just as full as any boat made of ANY material that is the same size. I don’t know where you got that odd notion but there is nothing magical (or “naturally buoyant”) about the material that they use for their hull. In fact the Loon will swamp and either sink or at least be unmanageable to re-enter in deep water when full of water. The 3 layer poly is for strength, not buoyancy. The Loon is no more “buoyant” than any other open-hulled rec boat and it will become a lead weight when full of water, especially since it is such a wide and deep barge of a boat.

Just saying, it would be an error to base any preference for the Loon on a complete misunderstanding about “buoyancy”.

@cwatkin said:
2. Transport: I think that this would be a big issue as I don’t have a good setup for transporting one this long. I would probably have to buy a trailer which I could do but that just adds complexity to the trips and shuttling as one would have to make an extra trip to retrieve the trailer.

I don’t see the problem with this one. I used to paddle with a friend who regularly carried a 17’ boat on his Mini. There are more extreme examples of this, I’m sure.

If (and I recognize this has yet to be determined) you aren’t happy with what a short boat has to offer, you need to make some concessions and get creative to enjoy a long boat. There’s no way to make the short one perform the same.

Yes, I agree with Sparky. A friend of mine used to transport her daughter’s 21’ long surf ski on top of a SmartCar. ( I do have to admit it looked like a shark humping a watermelon.) And I carry a 15’ and 18’ kayak on the roof of my small Mazda wagon all the time. Longer boats can be narrower and still have enough displacement (volume displacement is what creates buoyancy) and are a lot easier to load on roof racks than short fat boats.

This is all good information. I am definitely going to give the WS Pungo 120 some more time. As mentioned, I think I have decided to take it out the first few times on a stream more suited to a rec boat that can turn on a dime like the Vapor. Yes, the Vapor has a flatter bottom and doesn’t track nearly as well as the Pungo on open stretches. I think using the Vapor for this stream, especially the upper parts, will be my plan from now on. I am sure I will enjoy the Pungo a lot more once I take it on a more suitable river.

The reasons for me looking at a Loon are because of an overall first good impression with another Old Town product as well as the fact this one and the Pungo are rated well with some preferring the Loon. It looks to be more of a “barge” as described which is what the Vapor basically is as well.

I was unaware that the 3 layer construction wasn’t for buoyancy. Yeah, I know having to recover a swamped boat isn’t a lot of fun no matter what and this would be a larger boat than my Vapor 10 so become even more of a lead weight. Has anyone here ever been in a swamping situation on a Loon or not? I am just curious. The models I looked at at least had a rear dry hatch as well. I did just find some reviews that indicate it will stay floating but just below the surface. Many suggested the use of empty soda or other plastic bottles in mesh bags if you don’t like the intrusiveness of float bladders to displace water. I have put scraps of foam board insulation into some cheaper kayaks as well because they come with NOTHING. I figure this is what I will do when the cheesy factory floatation comes out of my Vapor 10.

For the most part I go with a group of people who all have 10-12 ft class kayaks. We transport them in the beds of pickup trucks. I know canoes and longer kayaks can hold more but I don’t want to be the odd man that brings a difficult kayak to transport. This wouldn’t be a problem on my local stream as I have the 10 ft Vapor but could be an issue on the longer trips where other people are involved.

As for the secondary market, I am sure that a Loon would be a lot easier to find than a Vapor 12. I have never seen a Vapor 12 anywhere except on websites while the Vapor 10 appears to be the basic line of Old Town at all the big box sporting goods stores and such so they are EVERYWHERE.

I wouldn’t buy another 10 ft kayak as I have the Vapor 10 as well as a cheapo spare that I might or might not sell. It is always good to have an extra for when that friend without a kayak wants to go at the last minute. I would definitely at least like to try out a Loon 120 or 126 because they look like nice boats. Again, I am not in any huge hurry and figure the Pungo might grow on me after the initial growing pains.

Conor

If turning your boat is your main problem, learn to do an angled bow rudder and lean away from your turn. Stern rudderIng is a waste of inertia

Don’t use foam board in kayaks!! It absorbs water and is therefore not only useless but a hazard. You have to use closed cell dense foam like minicell. It is similar to the stuff used in “pool noodles” and those solid blocks used for yoga supports (you can often find those blocks pretty cheap in the women’s sports and workout wear department of places like TJ Maxx and they can be cut with a sharp steak knife to shape them).

You can cut pool noodles (way cheap) and bundle them together with zip ties or duct tape to create void filler in the hull spaces in rec kayaks. Having just a stern bulkhead is almost as bad as having none as it can result in the difficult (and embarassing) “Cleopatra’s Needle” effect when the bow sinks and the stern floats. As in this linked infamous video (time point 0:45) of a guy who swamps his Pungo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvh18sQfx7c

The foam blocks that come under the decks in open hull rec boat kayaks are mostly to keep the decks from collapsing when they are all stacked in the shipping containers coming from China. Those blocks are really not “flotation”.

Pungos are made in Greenville, SC.

The grey things come from China?

@grayhawk said:
The grey things come from China?

No idea.

Maybe from Canada. They are evil too, right?

@Celia said:
Maybe from Canada. They are evil too, right?

Must be where I got my dark side. Canadian grandmother.

@Celia said:
Maybe from Canada. They are evil too, right?

100%

some boats you hang on to, some you deal away, I usually want to log somewhere around 50 paddle trips before I write off a boat. I’m not worried about the reputation, stats, or what others think. Is it fun for me? All boats have good and bad points. The boats I’ve dealt away the quickest I had spent quite a bit of time swimming.

@willowleaf said:
Don’t use foam board in kayaks!! It absorbs water and is therefore not only useless but a hazard. You have to use closed cell dense foam like minicell. It is similar to the stuff used in “pool noodles” and those solid blocks used for yoga supports (you can often find those blocks pretty cheap in the women’s sports and workout wear department of places like TJ Maxx and they can be cut with a sharp steak knife to shape them).

You can cut pool noodles (way cheap) and bundle them together with zip ties or duct tape to create void filler in the hull spaces in rec kayaks. Having just a stern bulkhead is almost as bad as having none as it can result in the difficult (and embarassing) “Cleopatra’s Needle” effect when the bow sinks and the stern floats. As in this linked infamous video (time point 0:45) of a guy who swamps his Pungo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvh18sQfx7c

The foam blocks that come under the decks in open hull rec boat kayaks are mostly to keep the decks from collapsing when they are all stacked in the shipping containers coming from China. Those blocks are really not “flotation”.

I’ll admit that I find his reaction more than disturbing than the “needle” itself. If that were a more challenging venue, that guy would be a hazard to himself and his partner with that attitude. If he were a drowning victim, you would have to knock him out first to save him.

Being unprepared and ignorant to dangers can happen to anyone, and one learns from it. Being whiny is usually a deeply inculcated characteristic (flaw) that infuses the default reaction to anything slightly adverse…

sing