More re Compact SUV's

@Celia said:
@Andy_Szymczak I’d be curious to hear your take on the 2019 Rav4.

Celia, the primary reason I’m looking at the Rav4 is my experience with the current one I have. My 2009 runs like new, the v6 is powerful and the selectable 4wd has been a bonus. I’m looking hard at the 2019 Hybrid Rav4, the MPG rating surpasses any other compact SUV. All Rav4’s now come with 4 cylinder engines, but the hybrid puts out more HP than the non hybrid Rav4’s. One caveat in all this is that as long as my current ride holds up, I don’t see any reason to replace it. Also looking at the Mazda CX5. It is one of the highest rated compact SUV’s in all the reviews I’ve read. The Honda CR-V is on my radar as well. But as long as my 2009 holds up, I may be looking at 2020 vehicles.

I used to race cars several years ago and at the end of the day the modern vehicles are built to such high minimums as set by the federal government that the cheapest 2018/19 vehicle will not only run rings performance wise around the most top end car from 30 years ago, but it is also inherently far safer and more comfortable. Compare a Chevy Equinox with a 1989 Ferrari or SEL 600 Mercedes, the former is so much better in every way there’s no comparison.

Sadly some marques remain unreliable, Chrysler/Fiat is awful and Subaru has had a lot of powertrain issues in the last ~10 years which has been unlike them. I mean serious stuff like ringland cracks, spun bearings, PCV flow, head gasket issues, exhaust valve springs to name a few with recalls and class action lawsuits resulting. These problems have not just been on the high performance turbo motors either, also their run of the mill naturally aspirated engines as well.

In the end it’s hard to get a “bad” car in today’s market. Think of all the ****boxes we used to drive not that long ago and be thankful!

@Andy_Szymczak I like some of what I am seeing in the 2019 RAV4’s, but there is other new stuff that I would rather someone else experiment with it first. The cargo capacity is a major question mark for me if it has been reduced. I am wasting a lot of space with just me in the car. But when I start hauling most of a string quartet or make the long trips to Maine including a crate with two cats, I want decent space. The higher clearance also an issue, I am already partly lifting my very frail 96 yr old stepmother into the seat to get her to doc appts. Not sure it’d work with 2 more inches added.

I get holding on. As you said, when these cars run well they do so with astonishingly little out of pocket costs compared to anything else I ever owned. Whatever other complaints anyone might have, their lack of fussiness is quite wonderful.

I can’t quite make sense of this small SUV world we are in right now. I am sure they are wonderful cars to drive but I just can’t see them as spacious and they are tall enough to make boat loading an issue. in my mind a good old minivan would do better.
As far as a solo boat hauler a lower car makes more sense to me but none of the modern sedans and hatchbacks are low enough to load a heavyish boat solo unassisted very easily. My Prelude is very low but it’s about the highest I am willing to do with a 50lb boat on regular basis. Even a Corolla would be tall enough for me to get a load assist so might as well do it with a van which would be so much more practical.

Agree with the minivan by the way, much better for space.

That said the best are the full size pickups, you can get them in 4 door full size everything, throw on a bed cap and then you have tons of room and before you know it 10,000, even 15,000lbs of trailering capability which admittedly was overkill but for me became the answer to all my Kayak transport problems.

@CA139 said:
Agree with the minivan by the way, much better for space.

That said the best are the full size pickups, you can get them in 4 door full size everything, throw on a bed cap and then you have tons of room and before you know it 10,000, even 15,000lbs of trailering capability which admittedly was overkill but for me became the answer to all my Kayak transport problems.

Not for me for sure. I considered a full size quad cab many times (mostly cause I like them :)), but realistically they are way to big to even fit on my driveway. To me it’s more about a good roof rack and lift assist system. I can fit my entire family with my boat and a cargo box on top for a cottage trip and the van does perfectly fine (especially after I added airbags to the rear suspension).

Celia, just for clarification the 2019 RAV 4’s have a conventional 8 speed automatic transmission except for the hybrid which uses a CVT. Also, Ford was never big into CVT’s so I think you meant Dual Clutch Transmissions (DCT’s) since only Ford hybrids use CVT’s. I had a one year lease on a 2005 Ford Freestyle when I worked for Ford and that one had a CVT but I think Ford went away from CVT’s largely to avoid maintenance complexity for their dealerships. So with a significant horsepower bump plus the 8 speed automatic the new RAV4 should be plenty peppy and also quick off the line which Americans love. I was disappointed to see the very small horsepower increase in the new Forester when they added direct fuel injection…which implies that it’s more of a retro-fit technology and marketing buzzword since direct fuel injection should enable a big horsepower increase while also improving fuel economy.

Dual clutch automatics are very popular in Europe and in sporty cars because they offer the control of a manual yet shift faster and more consistently than any other transmission so they can be a great option in sporty vehicles (like every Ferrari) or even the new little Hyundai Kona. The DCT is an awesome option in the VW GTI and it’s also getting rave reviews in the new Honda Gold Wing motorcycle. CVT’s do not have the control of a manual or DCT but they can work really well in the real world…my 2017 CRV is calibrated to feel eager and peppy and it feels more effortless driving through mountains than my V8 Mustang did. Many manufacturers may be forced to tune CVT’s for fuel economy so I can understand why some folks feel like they let the engine lug…the Nissan Murano feels a bit sluggish even though it has a very powerful engine and goes just great if you put your foot down. Hondas are usually a bit lighter than their competitors and they also often use slightly smaller engines so they can then calibrate the vehicles to be fun to drive and still get good fuel economy. The CVT in my Honda also gives more engine braking than a conventional auto and I like that.

All the new models have different personalities and different pro’s and con’s and one can make a good argument for any of them being “best”. I think the new RAV4 will be bigger and that’s one reason we liked the CRV…at the time it was the only small crossover that had a real double-wide armrest between the front seats just like grown up vehicles…plus it has way more rear seat legroom than our 4Runner!

@PaddleDog52 said:
I read an article year or two ago how headlight technology was way behind other patrs of car development. DOT has limits I am sure they could make blinding headlights.

They already make blinding headlights, many of which are likely blinding oncoming drivers without being of much use to the driver of the car.

The lights down low on the bumper are some of the worst offenders - many are brighter and more dazzling to oncoming traffic than the main headlights and probably do very little to aid the sight of the driver, since they’re located close to the pavement and are aimed into the eyes of oncoming drivers.

My impression is that the federal government doesn’t actually test new vehicle model headlights to see how detrimental they are to oncoming drivers. If they do, then they need to reconsider the acceptable parameters for the test.

Andy_S: I use standard square Thule bars with the lateral clamp mounts made to fit the “aerodynamic” side rails on the Mazda. Main problem is the close spacing – those factory bars (though the were an add-on when I bought the car which the dealer had to install) is so short that the space between the crossbars is only about the length of the cockpit coaming on any of my boats. That does make for a slippage-free placement when I carry them hull down but it means there is an awful lot of overhang. I lucked out the week I bought the CX5 – a poster on local Craigslist had just returned his own leased CX5 and had a two year old complete rack that he sold me for $150, good as new and adjusted to fit my vehicle. I like the car pretty well but wish it was more squared off and not egg-shaped. Can’t complain about quality, comfort or drive-worthiness but it’s lacking in space to haul stuff easily. I was spoiled by minivans and big ole’ Volvo wagons…

TomL
I am certain I was told by the Enterprise folks that the Fords I was renting had CVT. For a bit I was driving two major beaters, because I needed them as junk haulers for some cleaning up work. But they would not have been wise to take on long trips. I was generally renting Ford Focus’s because I long ago learned that Ford had the knack of a comfortable seat for my tastes. The young men at Enterprise may have been wrong.

I went back thru the various reviews and found the rather misleading sentence that had led me to think the non-hybrid version of the 2019 Rav4 had a CVT. Found another one that was clearer.

I also ran into a plethora of conflicting height measurements, and anywhere from half an inch to two inches estimated change in ground clearance. If I can get clear of some holiday prep stuff that is chewing up my time, I might try to get to a lot to look at one of these things. Just for information, I am quite good with my 2018.

@TomL said:
Celia, just for clarification the 2019 RAV 4’s have a conventional 8 speed automatic transmission except for the hybrid which uses a CVT. Also, Ford was never big into CVT’s so I think you meant Dual Clutch Transmissions (DCT’s) since only Ford hybrids use CVT’s. I had a one year lease on a 2005 Ford Freestyle when I worked for Ford and that one had a CVT but I think Ford went away from CVT’s largely to avoid maintenance complexity for their dealerships. So with a significant horsepower bump plus the 8 speed automatic the new RAV4 should be plenty peppy and also quick off the line which Americans love. I was disappointed to see the very small horsepower increase in the new Forester when they added direct fuel injection…which implies that it’s more of a retro-fit technology and marketing buzzword since direct fuel injection should enable a big horsepower increase while also improving fuel economy.

Dual clutch automatics are very popular in Europe and in sporty cars because they offer the control of a manual yet shift faster and more consistently than any other transmission so they can be a great option in sporty vehicles (like every Ferrari) or even the new little Hyundai Kona. The DCT is an awesome option in the VW GTI and it’s also getting rave reviews in the new Honda Gold Wing motorcycle. CVT’s do not have the control of a manual or DCT but they can work really well in the real world…my 2017 CRV is calibrated to feel eager and peppy and it feels more effortless driving through mountains than my V8 Mustang did. Many manufacturers may be forced to tune CVT’s for fuel economy so I can understand why some folks feel like they let the engine lug…the Nissan Murano feels a bit sluggish even though it has a very powerful engine and goes just great if you put your foot down. Hondas are usually a bit lighter than their competitors and they also often use slightly smaller engines so they can then calibrate the vehicles to be fun to drive and still get good fuel economy. The CVT in my Honda also gives more engine braking than a conventional auto and I like that.

All the new models have different personalities and different pro’s and con’s and one can make a good argument for any of them being “best”. I think the new RAV4 will be bigger and that’s one reason we liked the CRV…at the time it was the only small crossover that had a real double-wide armrest between the front seats just like grown up vehicles…plus it has way more rear seat legroom than our 4Runner!

If you want to be truly fast and responsive drive your car as if it were a motorcycle if you’ve ever driven 2 wheels and that’s how racing works. You don’t give it tons of gas, especially quickly, no never! Approaching a turn you get somewhat off the throttle, or if you really need to slow down for a curve, brake before the turn. Then when you are releasing the brake or as you are just backing off the throttle start to turn the wheel into the direction you want to turn. You can sometimes rotate the car by releasing the brake a little quicker and you tune it to the curve but again, smoothness and slowness and deftness is key. Turn in slightly early and then as soon as you reach the amount of steering input desired you want apply throttle very gradually whilst unwinding the wheel. Maximum steering should be initially with a goal to unwind the wheel as you apply gas, both slowly and smoothly. Now it should be so smooth that someone in the passenger seat should not be able to tell the exact moment when you let off the throttle, applied brake, were braking maximally, applied steering or started to apply throttle. But once you apply throttle start undinwing the wheel and straightening out and the car will start turning by itself. It’s magical. Did you know that high power front wheel drive cars can be tamed and rotated just like AWD or RWD?

You see throttle, when applied slowly, turns into grip because by forcing the wheels to turn forward it applies downforce on your car so it increases grip. But you don’t want to give too much throttle too quickly because that will essentially quickly lift the front tires and it’s like picking up the rudder out of the water. So you just keep feeding more and more throttle while you take away steering. If the car doesn’t point where you want you probably gave it too much gas too quickly, too little gas, or are giving it too much steering, or a combination of all three.

Once you know this principle you start to pick the line in a curve that is not the line that needs less steering. You pick the line in the curve that allows you to turn in and get on the throttle while unwinding the wheel the soonest and that’s different. Doesn’t matter how much gas you give it, the important thing is giving a tiny little bit as soon as possible. Usually you start on the outside, turn in a bit early, gas and start unwinding as soon as possible, get on the inside relatively late, and end up on the outside at the end but it’s not linear like that. Each curve is different and it depends on the car, the surface, conditions, lots of stuff. When faced with a slalom situation or multiple curves set yourself up so that you get on the gas the soonest on the last curve as that is the longest straight where speed is most important, which means in a series of 4 turns the first 3 should be sacrificed in order to put yourself in the position to maximize your speed coming out of the last. Watch these slaloms transitions, that’s when you are most likely to spin out on the 3rd turn or 3rd twist of the steering wheel!

Do this smoothness thing feathering wheel and throttle and you can drive around at 1.5-2x the speed limit all the time without anyone ever noticing. You can keep up with luxury and high power cars that are flooring the throttle and the brake all the time burning traction and you’re basically barely feeding in gas, just keeping momentum and using all your available grip as efficiently as possible.

Driven this way all modern cars are so well engineered they all start to feel the same.

That said I love heel-toe downshifts and prefer the manual over the sequentials, especially with cars that have very short final drive ratios or high torque, turbo motors or V8’s. But more than 100hp is unnecessary because most people don’t know how to drive and just use it to break traction because they jam on the throttle too much even if they are not spinning the wheels.

Not many are racing to a paddle spot.

@PaddleDog52 said:
Not many are racing to a paddle spot.

Doesn’t matter. Drive like this and all cars feel like they have infinite grip and behave like supercars at all speed limit levels.

If anything being so deliberate and smooth in this grip-driving technique works going double the speed limit, at 10mph over the speed limit driving to work, 5mph under the speed limit driving your kids to school in the rain, anywhere. You are basically raising the car’s limits by utilizing physics on your side by being smooth and deliberate.

If anything such a driving style is very desirable when going paddling because with stuff on the roof you want to avoid hard shocks so this would definitely be the best way to drive. Basically it keeps the car happy and grippy so that you wear the drivetrain less, wear the tires less, don’t experience hard shocks, everything lasts longer and you’re safer and less accident prone regardless of car or condition.

On a motorcycle you have to drive that way or you’ll fall. On a car you can get away with it most of the time but if you just point, add throttle, and unwind the car will be so much happier and you will too, slow or fast regardless. Try it out going the speed limit on a curvy road. Don’t break any traffic laws but stop having a constant amount of steering in a curve. Be dynamic, feel the car, add throttle after you point and slowly unwind the wheel as you keep adding gas. Slow in, faster out, smooth always, you’ll see!

I liked those 2005 Legacy wagons, had a 2002 wrx wagon that I loved, but at the end of it’s lifespan I had trouble spending more than 45 minutes in that thing. I was thinking about a used Legacy wagon in 2012, but got a new Outback instead which I absolutely hated, and traded for a used Ford Flex only a year or two later. Hated to get a crossover, bloated and slow, but still drives better than the Outback and incredibly comfortable. Was also the closest thing to a “wagon” I could find, evenif the roofline is almost 6 feet tall. And what’s the old saying about if you can’t beat them join them?
What happened to the full sized wagons? Did the mini-vans kill them off, then the suv became cool, but the cuv more practical? I guess they just don’t sell in this country, a few domestic manufacturers made them, Dodge Magnum comes to mind, but they didn’t last. Still a lot of hot hatches, like a Mazda 3 wagon, but you have to go European to get a full sized wagon. And you can still get a full sized wagon in Europe that isn’t a bloated cuv. I still like the last of the Saab wagons whenever I see them, great format, too bad GM killed Saab. Would love to get the modern equivalent of a '69 Cutlass wagon, or even a Country Squire, a low slung cruiser that holds a lot, will carry 4-5 comfortably, big old rack on top within easy reach, and will eat up highway miles. I suppose with the demise of the domestic sedan, more cuvs and suvs will be built and sold, probably little chance of a big wagon coming back, unless we get some crazy gas crisis that hits hard.

Celia, Ford Focus uses a Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT), not a CVT. If you google it, it looks like they paid a high price in consumer complaints…although I also rented one a few years ago and the execution was pretty good. I know the manager responsible for that transmission and I bet he has more gray hair than last time I saw him.

CA139, I basically agree with you. One thing I remember from Bondurant training was “turn in, trail off (the brakes), accelerate, unwind”. For sure one can be fast and smooth (and safe) by paying attention to some basics. I also love manuals and leased three different Miatas when I worked for Ford. My Miatas had a 4.18 axle and turned 4200 rpm at 80 mph. My Miatas had the sport package with summer tires and limited slip differential with no electronic traction control so they were totally unusable in the winter. My friend worked for Audi and one year he leased an S4 with 6 speed manual (NICE car) and the next year he leased an S4 with 7 speed DCT. The DCT made it a better luxury car and also took the performance to a significantly higher level but overall I might still take the manual. Just FYI I’ve had about 15 motorcycles but I never really thought about bike skills transferring to cars although I do think bikes made me much more aware of the importance of good brakes.

My main point around CVT’s, DCT’s and other technologies like turbos is that none of them are universally good or bad…customers don’t drive transmissions they drive vehicles with lots of integrated technologies and all vehicles and technologies have trade offs so it’s really a matter of personal preference (just like boats!).

Dodge Magnum with hellcat motor dropped in would be my choice.

Doesn’t matter. Drive like this and all cars feel like they have infinite grip and behave like supercars at all speed limit levels.

If that was true then there wouldn’t be any supercars.

Junk is junk and the more you drive it at it’s limitations the more it shows.

Never really drove any small crossover vehicles or small SUV models.

@Celia said:
The real trick for someone who wants to talk wayback is manual transmission without synchro mesh. Few under the age of 70 are likely to have encountered a car without it. I was first taught on one of these old clunkers with at best marginal results. Speed shifting came easily to me later on as well as trucks with extra gears for towing horse trailers. But double clutching another matter, probably couldn’t do it now.

My progression in my own cars with manual transmission has been from three speed manual on the column to up to five speed boxes; included US made, German and Japanese brands.

I agree with a lot of the car guys I have heard on talk shows. Current cars are safer than what I started driving. I am glad that I learned on cars that made me work a little harder to handle bad driving conditions, and yeah my current car is really a computer with wheels and a transmission. But if you look at what these vehicles are really doing over the course of driving a few miles - the constant monitors for traffic on three sides and the rear cameras that practically and see around corners when trying to back out of a spot - they are pretty impressive.

There were parts on the older cars that were simpler and so they lasted longer, but it wasn’t an even situation. The body on my first Plymouth was rotting out long before the engine gave its last gasp because it was before anti-rust coatings were so good, After the first couple of years it required a piece of cardboard to hold the the butterfly valve open for the carburetor when temps were under 20 degrees because the spring was only reliable up to about 40000 miles. And I wasn’t going to buy a who;e new carburetor for one badly designed spring. The simplicity of these older cars made workarounds more feasible than in the current computerized versions. I am not ready to equate that to better.

I saw the butterfly comment which brought back an old memory for me. I assume you mean the choke blade on the carb? I had the same thing. Went to a junk yard got the spring out of another carb and was fixed up. my 1974 AMC Gremlin, green color 3 speed on the floor manual steering manual brakes AM radio, plus before electronic ignition had points that I changed a lot. . the good old days. Paid 300 bucks for it. in 1981 so it was old.

Anyone going back before syncro transmissions is really old. I believe semi trucks are still that way?

@PaddleDog52 said:
Doesn’t matter. Drive like this and all cars feel like they have infinite grip and behave like supercars at all speed limit levels.

If that was true then there wouldn’t be any supercars.

Junk is junk and the more you drive it at it’s limitations the more it shows.

Never really drove any small crossover vehicles or small SUV models.

The supercar allows either insecure people to feed their ego or extra speed on the track, but drive for grip as above stated and especially with the well designed modern cars you can go pretty much 1 1/2-2x the speed limit at all times barely giving it any throttle. All cars are like this and when you use the throttle to add grip you can do it slowly pulling out of your drive way or at Watkins Glen or driving to your grandpa’s house in the winter on snowy dirt roads in rural Maine it’s all the same. Smooth application of throttle whilst unwinding the wheel equals grip. Take it from someone whose done it with a lot of vehicles, do this, all cars seem very similar from super car to econobox. They all start to feel like supercars though, it’s like the magic grip and rotating button were some how unlocked and it works even at parking speeds!

Try it, take your car and drive it as if it were a motorcycle by pointing, applying throttle and unwinding the wheel as you apply more throttle. I’m not saying fast or reckless or even enough throttle to speed. Nope, just a tiny, teeny little bit and keep smoothly rolling onto the throttle as if it was an egg! Don’t be speeding, just try coming out of a slow curve that way, practice, you’ll get the hang of it. The modern cars have such high levels of engineering that even the cheapest car on today’s roads is way too fast, way too capable and the speed limits will seem so low with just a few page thicknesses of gas. And the performance potential only goes up from there.

Like I said if you have to floor the throttle unless you are opening up on a very long straightaway on a closed course that allows you the speeds that any modern car can allow in that situation you aren’t driving properly. True grip, true speed is the lazy route, the less you do, the less input you give the driveline and suspension, the more grip the car has to do what it can and wants. If you feel no longer like the driver but the passenger and that the car is driving you, you know that you’re doing it correctly…

My Dad taught me to drive on a manual in a car with a police interceptor engine. Only on country dirt roads. Can’t tell you how many times I crow hopped and stalled that beast.
Many years later we got a VW Beetle and I couldn’t believe how simple it was to shift.