They were experienced, and instructors

in general I avoid paddling in, around, or over manmade structures, that even includes artificial ww courses! I rarely “play” under bridges, since there is often manmade debri there as well.

One of my favorite runs has it’s share of rebar, chunks of concrete. and other debri but I’m pretty cognizant of where it is (scouting at low flow) and work to avoid it. Yes, I’ve run a few dams and even purposefuly surfed in spillway outflow. So I have made exceptions when it suited me. I think in general, folks underestimate the dangers of manmade structures- be it a cattle fence, a low head dam, a spillway hole or backwash, and often even breached dams have unseen debri.

I think each of us needs to be prepared (skillset and gearwise) for whatever environment we choose to paddle in. “Flatwater” can be anything but flat.

Ocean and Great Lake paddlers got way bigger kahunas than I do. That water is deep and you can be a long way from shore. Then you throw in currents , tides, wind, water temps, and ocean critters and there is a lot to consider.

As far as woodall shoals (chattooga) and the L (big south fork): know the water levels, be on your line, and punch drops real fast and hard (or in the modern age boof) or you just carry around that stuff. Understand that mistakes can have serious consequences. It’s your *ss on the line so you make the decision. “Stuff” does happen.

As far as certification, I am certifiable, just not at a very high level. Certification in general is a good starting point but not the end all be all. This discussion reminds me it’s time for me to again renew my first-aid/cpr and that I have some pretty huge holes in my own game that need to be filled (I struggle with rolling and hand of God).

I suspect a lot of regulars on this board could be certifiable… :slight_smile:

Quoting Paul Simon, “Celia, you’re breakin my heart”.

@Celia said:
I suspect a lot of regulars on this board could be certifiable… :slight_smile:

Nutz to that!

Interestingly when the Appalachian Mountain Club started running trips out of Knubble Bay ( inbetween two sizeable powerful tidal races) the leaders were all out of Boston AMC Whitewater committee.

I am pretty good at dealing with tidal whirlpools and eddies that constantly change but ask Pete about failure to hug a rootwad on the Current. He helped me out from my forgetfulness.

So while some whitewater skills are handy for long boaters on the ocean it does not make us skilled river runners… And embarrasingly I am a Level 3 ACA instructor. Freestyle… And about a level one student on the river.

@Celia said:
I suspect a lot of regulars on this board could be certifiable… :slight_smile:

Sign me up. :smile:

These guys were not big water paddlers or seakayakers, i think most experienced ocean paddlers who do rock gardens and tide races would have known the signs meant there was a reversal current and hydraulic at the base of the dam. Most of the people I paddle with can recognize details on the surface of the water that tell a story of current and where you want to be and where you don’t want to be. The victim’ training and pictures show two flat water, inland boaters. Unfortunately owning a seakayak or a vanilla touring SINK does not give you moving water skills by osmosis. Anyone who has ever done any training near a dam has been told of the dangers. Its a sad lesson for people on that river to learn. In hawaii they post very severe warning signs, some say how many people have drowned at a particular spot on the coast, and some show cartoon images of how you will be bashed by the rocks and waves and drown. Maybe the signage in Iowa should be more explicit.

I’m confused - were these guys upstream or downstream of the dam? Either way I wouldn’t have been any where near it.

@eckilson First article had them upstream, later one had them downstream. I assume the later article is more correct.

@Allan Olesen said:

@qajaqman said:
L2 is not experienced,
[…]
I would consider a graduate of that class a better-informed beginner.

What would you consider the coach of that class? That is what is relevant here.

I dont think either was an instructor.) I thought that was an error in one of the articles.

@eckilson said:
I’m confused - were these guys upstream or downstream of the dam? Either way I wouldn’t have been any where near it.

In the article I posted they were downstream and got sucked upstream.

@qajaqman said:
In the article I posted they were downstream and got sucked upstream.
That seems more likely to me - the reversal on the downstream side of a dam that big must be pretty powerful, and why would anyone paddle close to the gates on the upstream side.

@qajaqman said:

@Allan Olesen said:

@qajaqman said:
L2 is not experienced,
[…]
I would consider a graduate of that class a better-informed beginner.

What would you consider the coach of that class? That is what is relevant here.

I dont think either was an instructor.) I thought that was an error in one of the articles.

Both were ACA certified at L2, as posted here Jan 14

L2 means students, not instructors, if I recall the ACA certs correctly.

In ACA parlance, “L” usually simply denotes “level”. Here are the baseline physical requirements and instructional expertise expected of an “ACA Level 2: Essentials of Kayak Touring” Instructor Candidate:

http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/aca.site-ym.com/resource/resmgr/sei-courses/l2_ekt_instcrit.pdf

As you can see, at this particular level, what is expected of the instructor is some mastery of basic flat water strokes, rescue and re-entry techniques, and flat water safety issues and hazards, although weather and tide conditions, signaling devices, boat traffic issues, charts, and float plans are also part of the curriculum.

But basically nothing mentioned about dynamic moving water hazards.

It is not until “ACA Level 4: Coastal Kayaking” that the following skills are required:

kayak roll
Negotiate Moderate Wind & Sea Conditions
Paddling comfort in moderate seas
Ability to paddle in a head sea / beam sea / quartering sea / following sea
Ability to turn up and down wind efficiently
Ability to hold position
Negotiate Moderate Surf
Launch & land forward
Launch & land backward
Surf, broach and side surf
Negotiate Moderate Current
Establish ferry angle (forward & reverse)
Control peeling out / eddy turns
Kayak Tripping:
Day Trips: show evidence of at least three or more day trips of at least 12-15 nautical miles in various conditions
Multi Day Trips: Show evidence of at least one multi-day journey involving overnight camping

http://cdn.ymaws.com/www.americancanoe.org/resource/resmgr/SEI-Courses/L4_OWCK_Assessment.pdf

@Celia said:
L2 means students, not instructors, if I recall the ACA certs correctly.

Kevin Beatty is listed as a certified L2 instructor on the ACA website: https://www.americancanoe.org/members/?id=36922164&hhSearchTerms="Beatty"

I guess l did not recall what L means. That said, Pblanc explanation doesn’t sound like someone who would have yet experienced a broad,mix of more challenging big, or moving, water conditions.

@Rookie said:

@qajaqman said:

@Allan Olesen said:

@qajaqman said:
L2 is not experienced,
[…]
I would consider a graduate of that class a better-informed beginner.

What would you consider the coach of that class? That is what is relevant here.

I dont think either was an instructor.) I thought that was an error in one of the articles.

Both were ACA certified at L2, as posted here Jan 14

I remember you posting that info, but you said “Kevin Beatty, the survivor, is a certified L2, coastal kayak, essentials of kayak touring. Also completed the skills assessment for coastal kayaking L3”

Since you did not say he was an instructor I assumed they were both merely certified L2 paddlers. But I appreciate the clarification

@Allan Olesen said:

@qajaqman said:
L2 is not experienced,
[…]
I would consider a graduate of that class a better-informed beginner.

What would you consider the coach of that class? That is what is relevant here.

I would consider them capable of teaching raw beginners to become better informed beginners, but not much more. One of the things in a possible L2 course includes training about hazards and obstructions including dams.

https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/aca.site-ym.com/resource/.../sei-courses/l2_ekt_skills.pdf

but I don’t see that its madatory. Maybe these guys weren’t taught about dam dangers in their instructor cert, which would be scary because then they wouldn’t teach their students either. Hard to say, and I don’t want to make any assumptions.

I don’t have high regard for certifications. Plenty of very good, smart, safe paddlers get them and plenty more learn the same things other ways. There certainly have been a number of certified instructor incidents that I’m aware of in recent years that give me some pause.

There was only minimal exposure to, and discussion of moving water in my Paddle Canada L2. To the best of my knowledge, this is roughly equivalent to the ACA L2.

I’ve picked up much more on my own, and when I went to the BOFSKS.

@qajaqman said:

Maybe these guys weren’t taught about dam dangers in their instructor cert, which would be scary because then they wouldn’t teach their students either. Hard to say, and I don’t want to make any assumptions.

I don’t have high regard for certifications. Plenty of very good, smart, safe paddlers get them and plenty more learn the same things other ways. There certainly have been a number of certified instructor incidents that I’m aware of in recent years that give me some pause.

They had to have been taught that as the ACA Level 2 Essentials of Kayak Touring includes the following under safety and rescue: “Hazards: wind, waves, weather, current, rocks, bridges, piers, dams, strainers, traffic.”

But oddly such hazards aren’t mentioned in the instructor criteria: https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.americancanoe.org/resource/resmgr/sei-courses/l2_ekt_instcrit.pdf

The article you cited stated:

“The men, along with two other kayakers, were paddling southeast of the dam on a sunny January day when temperatures rose into the 50s. Chicoine and Beatty got too close to the stilling basin, where water pours from Lake Red Rock through the dam gates. It’s extremely turbulent, Tracy Spry, a park ranger with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, said Tuesday. ‘The water has an immense amount of force, and if you get beyond that restricted area, there are chances you can get drawn in,’ Spry said.”

Terrible consequences from a lapse in judgment, risk assessment, and situational awareness.

As to certified instructors, I like that they all have to undergo training and testing. But they’re all different and I think have different levels of safety concerns. During one class a L4 coastal kayak instructor had us practice with a contact tow. When I worked with an L5 coach, he checked my boat and disapproved of the contact tow (he doesn’t use one). It was all about safety, so now I wear my tow belt instead.