@Peter-CA said:
The Manta Ray is considered a high angle blade. Other people here have been suggesting blade shape changes and such, but you didn’t mention looking to do that, so I am going to do a straight changeover to the closest Werner product to what you currently use.
Both the Werner “premium” and “ultimate” category paddles would be improvements in weight over the Manta Ray. The premium ones will be 100-200 grams lighter. The ultimate paddles will be 200-300 grams lighter.
Based on blade size, the Ikelos looks to be closest to what you are currently using. Only available in ultimate level, as far as I can tell (someone correct me if I am wrong). The Shuna would be a premium level option with slightly smaller blade (still considered high angle), and Corrvreken with slightly larger blade.
Shuna 615 sq cm blade
Manta Ray 677 sq cm blade
Ikelos 691 sq cm blade
Corryvrecken 721 sq cm blade
I have tried a variety of paddles over the years, but have settled on Werner as the ones I buy and use. I have both Shuna and Corryvrecken, but mostly use the Shuna.
Nice. Thanks for this info. Yeah, I am used to high angle, so figure I might as well stay with that. There are 4 or 5 of us who paddle together casually, and I think most everyone else is using a Werner. I see them at the rental place, too, so figured it’s a solid brand.
Nice. Thanks for this info. Yeah, I am used to high angle, so figure I might as well stay with that. There are 4 or 5 of us who paddle together casually, and I think most everyone else is using a Werner. I see them at the rental place, too, so figured it’s a solid brand.
If you see them at the rental place perhaps you can rent a few different blades.
I would rent a few paddles for the weekend when I was looking for a new paddle. The shop would credit my rental fees toward the purchase price of the paddle I decided on. I have had the Camano and the Kalliste. I use the Kalliste but it is foam core and I feel the Camano is more rugged.
Whatever you choose Werner has great service.
My suggestion is to not get hung up on high angle paddling. I’ve tried it all over the years and finally I decided I would find what works best for me. It turns out that low angle is what I settled on and there are definite benefits. I believe it is much less tiring and less strain on your arms and shoulders. It also allows you to slightly extend your stroke if you like–without lifting water. I concentrate on pushing the blade that is out of the water and the low angle puts your arm and shoulder at much better position to reduced strain. I also think that the lower angle takes better advantage of torso rotation and you are less likely to bend your elbows as much. Don’t let paddling correctness keep you from experimenting.
Thanks for the help, everyone! I ended up getting the Ikelos. Got to try it out today, and wow, what a difference compared to my AquaBound! It’s very light and really gets the boat moving. Only thing I noticed is it felt like the blade was shaking/fluttering a bit as I pulled it through the water. It’s the same length as my old paddle, and I’m still using a 30 deg feather, so I’m assuming I just need to adjust to the Werner. The blade is shaped differently than my old paddle, so I bet I just need to spend more time with it. Anyway, it was $$$, but I’d say it’s well worth it =)
One other thing: is it a bad idea to store my paddle like this (see photo below)? I’m thinking I should probably lay it flat on the floor somewhere, although I kept my AquaBound paddle like this (at least during paddling season), and haven’t noticed any problems. I’m just a bit paranoid since this one was a lot more expensive.
Per Nigel Foster’s The Art of Kayaking, flutter is caused by overpowering the blade. I did that today with my Cyprus while dealing with gusty headwinds. All gone as soon as I lightened up the next stroke.
Per Werner’s FAQ:
1. After every use take your paddle apart and rinse both sides inside and out with fresh water.
2. Store your paddle hanging apart with blades up.
3. NEVER use a lubricant on your ferrule! Our ferrules don’t like lubricants but they love lots of water!
The rinsing after each use is important. While using a gentle stream of water, push the ferrule button in and out a few times. You want to avoid a stuck ferrule.
If the button ever feels like it’s sticking, use warm water mixed with a bit of dish soap and slosh it around a few times, then rinse.
Great investment you made and it will serve you well.
@Rookie said:
Per Nigel Foster’s The Art of Kayaking, flutter is caused by overpowering the blade. I did that today with my Cyprus while dealing with gusty headwinds. All gone as soon as I lightened up the next stroke.
Per Werner’s FAQ:
1. After every use take your paddle apart and rinse both sides inside and out with fresh water.
2. Store your paddle hanging apart with blades up.
3. NEVER use a lubricant on your ferrule! Our ferrules don’t like lubricants but they love lots of water!
The rinsing after each use is important. While using a gentle stream of water, push the ferrule button in and out a few times. You want to avoid a stuck ferrule.
If the button ever feels like it’s sticking, use warm water mixed with a bit of dish soap and slosh it around a few times, then rinse.
Great investment you made and it will serve you well.
Thanks! I did notice the flutter seemed to happen when I was paddling harder. Lake Erie had some decent size waves going today. Not too windy, probably like 3-5 feet, but not breaking, so it was pretty fun bobbing up an down.
I guess I might need a special paddle mount or something? Not sure how I would store it hanging?
@Doggy Paddler said:
Not to highjack the thread, but do you need to rinse after paddling in fresh water?
I’ve always just sprayed mine off with the hose when I got home, but never sprayed any on the inside. I’m thinking it’d be more important with saltwater.
Yes, you should rinse even if paddling in fresh water. Sand and other small particles can get into the ferrule. Werner doesn’t differentiate between salt and fresh when it advises to take the paddle apart and rinse with fresh water after every use.
They’re expensive paddles. For me, it’s worth it to take a couple of minutes to clean out the ferrule on my Cyprus. Cheaper than having to ship the paddle back to Werner for repair, which I had to do once because the spring in the ferrule was defective (they sent me a new paddle).
Pretty sure you could find inexpensive clips that screw into a wall for the paddle.
The Ikelos is rather unforgiving. When I upgraded from the Shuna, it took me some time to get a clean bite with the Ikelos.
To avoid the flutter and lack of bite, it is important to keep a good upper body rotation where you also slide the paddle sideways out from the boat during the stroke and keep a good push with your upper hand.
Allan’s point helps in addressing what’s going on. Biomechanically you’re likely pulling with the biceps too much (arm paddling)
Think of the water piling up on the power face of the paddle. If it has no directed escape it will pour off one side till the pressure is released and build again till it needs to our off a side again. Flutter like a spoon type fishing Lure.
Think of the blade as a wing with a leading edge (flowing molecules hits first) and trailing edge. With body rotation to power the paddle rather than pulling the paddle through the water the path of the paddle relative to the boat is at an angle away from the kayak rather than parallel. This makes the blade(wing) fly away from the hull making the top edge of the power face the leading edge throughout the power phase of the stroke giving the water a continuous escape route off the bottom trailing edge. Result should be no flutter, longer period of resistance in which to propel the kayak past and an easier exit point (which can add more speed but I’m already at limit for typing with my thumbs)
Forward Stroke Refinement is a whole lot easier to teach in person than type.
Have fun with your new paddle and your homework is Go Kayakkng!
As a newb I find this advice easiest to understand and follow: to make sure to push with the opposite hand on the paddle shaft, instead of just pulling on the paddle with the water side hand. Dunno if this will help you but it has me.
You might want to try paddling without the feather (blades aligned in the same plane) just to see how that feels with the new model. I think it is more intuitive and easier to push on the the opposite hand when your wrists are not cocked at an angle, which they have to be to get the blade in the best position when the blades are offset.
I have not used feathering since the first few weeks I owned a touring kayak 17 years ago and I know far more people who use them without feathering than do, though that is a completely legitimate personal choice if it feels right to you. Feathering has some benefits in windy conditions and paddlers racing for speed using a high angle often use it.
In general, offset blades are more characteristic of paddles for whitewater because they can help you power through quick directional changes. A feathered paddle can be fatiguing on long trips because it does put more stress on your wrists…
One trick I was taught to ensure pushing not pulling is to open the pushing hand. If you try to pull with the top hand open you might find the paddling leaving your hand. It is a good way to ensure pushing.
When I got my first Werner, I also noticed the “flutter”. I don’t think it is exclusive to Werner paddles. It goes away when you let the paddle center itself; don’t fight it. I think it is very helpful to concentrate on pushing the out-of-water blade. Pulling the in-water blade happens without thought.
Werner’s instructions on maintaining the paddle are right on, but I have to admit that I never do anything except keep the paddles clean and have never had a problem with any of them.
@magooch said:
When I got my first Werner, I also noticed the “flutter”. I don’t think it is exclusive to Werner paddles.
Correct. It is more or less supposed to happen if you are moving the blade perpendicularly to the water.
Beginner paddles often have dihedral blades to prevent this. They give the water an “escape route” towards both edges of the paddle, so they will feel stable, even when paddled this way. But those are less efficient. So perhaps the OP’s old paddle was dihedral.
I often notice a little flutter when I switch from my Werner Cyprus to my Greenland Paddle. Of course it goes away as soon as I realize I need to relax my stroke a little.
I always rinse my carbon fiber paddles off with fresh water and apply some 303 protectant a couple or so times a year. After 5 years my Cyprus - and my wife’s - still look brand new.
