How Heavy Is Too Heavy?

@willowleaf said:
First off, why would you (GMacG) disdain a statement on the performance of skin on frame boats in the same breath where you admit you’ve never paddled one?? Second, of course nobody would use a skin on frame or folding kayak preferentially in most of those racing events you list because the relative speed and handling advantage over rigid boats exists in confused very open rough water, not in other conditions that would be more common in a racing situation.

I have no opinion on the comparative handling or stability of SOF’s, but I do on comparative speed. How? I’ve answered this question twice above. I look at the empirical past – namely, the boats that winning racers have used. Any water race.

But you want to focus on speed in “confused and very open rough water”, Okay (with some links). How about any slalom or downriver whitewater race ever held in class 3-4 whitewater? Think a SOF could win? I’ve never seen or heard of it, and I’ve been watching whitewater racing for 40 years on every level from local races to the Olympics.

How about the annual 41 mile ocean race across the Molokai channel in Hawaii? BIG water. (The video is only of the OC6 boats, but it shows the carnage conditions.) No SOF constructed boats ever seen there to my knowledge.

How about any of the many open class ocean races such as the 20+ mile annual Blackburn Challenge around Cape Ann, Massachusetts, in which “the water can be very rough, with strong winds and high waves.” Never heard of a SOF having the fastest times, which are all published.

You don’t have to be a meteorologist to know empirically what the weather was yesterday.

@Glenn MacGrady said:
…age 40 to 70: Any solo canoe or kayak that is over 45 pounds is too heavy…
…At age 70 I revised the upper weight limit to 35 pounds…
What a great ‘rule of thumb’ (just 'cause that’s what I think).
I might amend that with an exception - if you always paddle with friends that always will be there to assist in carrying. (I paddle 90% solo)
Also, if you think that a lighter weight boat will get you on the water more often, spend the extra bucks on the kayak (get a cheaper car next time, put off the kitchen remodel)

Every year me and my kayak gain 2 pounds!

My feeling is that our Wilderness Polaris at 85lbs is a little heavier than we’d want but we can do it (we’re in our 40’s) and we are right on the water. I do appreciate the weight just for momentum and handling rough seas as it’s right on a tidal bay that has very rough water, but we would never want to take that boat out anywhere else, ever. I wouldn’t have it if we weren’t staying where we are.

180lbs pure, unloaded boat weight is just too much and that was my suspicion. That kayak could be disassembled in 3 pieces but two of them were about 80lbs each, too much to handle! I saw it took over 2 hours to assemble, and 2 hours to disassemble too, not practical. And it felt heavy enough that not only was it a no-go on land, but it felt like a no-go on water. That’s my unqualified opinion.

Well Glenn you may be on to something. I just sold my heaviest solo canoe (45 pounds) because it was too heavy. Now I have 5 solos with 3 around the 35 pound limit…but my Shearwater is over 40 and I’m pondering selling it and replacing it with a lighter one. My Bell Merlin II is around 40 but I can never sell it because we’ve done too many things together. I recently test paddled a Northstar Trillium and I was impressed with the boat’s performance and also with the 26 pound weight.

CA139 - I’ve always thought that a boat is too heavy if you ever hesitate to use it because of what it weighs.

I’ve been carrying this kayak on my shoulder
to go paddling} for over 15 years. I turned 67 this year and determined it was now too heavy to solo carry. I weighted it when I took it apart a week ago 75 pounds. I bought a 50 pound Nordkapp LV to paddle instead. Feels light to carry {

My new {to me} kayak

Hi Roy. Would love to know how you do with the Nordlow. My eldercare issue is gradually resolving so my time is more predictable, looks like I can count on getting my roll dialed back in on both sides this winter so I can come out next spring in JIm’s Nordkapp LV. I have been playing extreme safety in my choices of boats because of paddling solo so it should be a lot of fun to try out the other.

@Glenn MacGrady said:
Any solo canoe or kayak that is over 45 pounds is too heavy.
This is complete BS, as it eliminates all but a handful of commercially made sea kayaks. Utter nonsense!

@bnystrom said:
Utter nonsense!
nonsense for thee but not for me
(age - mid 60’s, kayak miles - over 4k/yr, avg (of 8) kayak weight - 35lbs)

I’m 76 and wouldn’t trade my 19’-2", 51 pound fiberglass sea kayak for anything. I still carry it on my shoulder to and from the water. I do wish they would put the parking lots closer to the water, though.

The other day, I just about crossed one launch site off my list, because they changed the beach and it’s now pretty steep from the water to the parking lot. Ever try carrying a boat uphill in soft, dry sand?

@bnystrom said:

@Glenn MacGrady said:
Any solo canoe or kayak that is over 45 pounds is too heavy.
This is complete BS, as it eliminates all but a handful of commercially made sea kayaks. Utter nonsense!

Your response provides no objective and little subjective guidance on the topic question: How much weight is too much?

I simply provided the general weight guideline that I, in historical fact, followed from about age 40 for solo canoes, solo kayaks and solo outrigger canoes. From ages 8-40, I paddled and owned lots of much heavier canoes including aluminum, wood and Royalex tandems and solos. At around 40, it was impressed upon me by the top whitewater racers and flatwater sport canoeists of the time to consider lightweight composite canoes, and that my body would thank me in later years. I did, and and my body has.

I took up seakayaking after 40 and searched, I suppose, among the “handful” of lightweight kayaks in that field. I was never interested in a kayak that could cross the North Sea or circumnavigate Iceland, but which simply could provide some pleasant day trips and exercise and which was easy to carry on portage routes. I suspect that the “handful” has grown bigger over the past 20 years with the increasing popularity of modern construction techniques such as resin infusion, more space age fabrics, and the move to shorter kayaks (and canoes).

Weight may not matter much to the young, the strong, the physically fit and the perfectly healthy. And heavy boats certainly have a place in niche areas such as expedition paddling (or historic recreations). However, for those of us who are – or who soon will be – no longer young, no longer strong, no longer fit, no longer healthy and no longer interested in expedition paddling in heavy boats, I think my old rule of thumb still makes sense. Today, in fact, I would strive for solo boats under 40 pounds even if I were still superboy. Other folks, of course, have different histories and different opinions.

Skin on frame kayaks and surf skis, both rigid and folding versions, have indeed been used for racing. They are more common in Europe:

http://race.fit2paddle.com/C1159474119/E20051123005157/index.html

Magooch - there comes a time for kayak carts… just sayin’ :slight_smile:

Per light boats and portability for us “geezers”: I have 8 in the armada at the moment and only one is a bit over 40 pounds. I live on a steep hill (you have to descend a flight of 6 steps just to get from the street to the front yard) with no place for a driveway or garage so these all live in my walk-out basement in back of the house. I will be building a garage and boat storage house within the next year at the level rental property that I own a few blocks away but for now this is the arrangement.

At 69 years old and only 5’ 4" tall I no longer want to own any boat that I cannot carry on my own (without pain and strain) from the basement, up through the yard and steps and hoist onto the car roof rack. I do have a double kayak trailer but it has to be parked for now 150’ behind the house in the back alley (down at the bottom of the steep yard). But using the trailer and putting the folding kayaks into their respective duffel bags I can haul all eight boats (260 pounds total) in one trip.

Listed by length. The 18’ SOF (with 20" beam) is the fastest:

12’ Pakboat Puffin folding kayak: 23 pounds
12’ Curtis Ladybug canoe: 37 pounds
13.5’ Pakboat Quest 135 folding kayak: 27 pounds
(two) 14’ Pakboat Swift folding kayaks: 28 pounds each
15’ Venture Easky LV plastic kayak: 46 pounds
15’ 7" Feathercraft Wisper folding kayak: 37 pounds
18’ handbuilt West Greenland replica rigid skin on frame: 34 pounds

@willowleaf said:
But using the trailer and putting the folding kayaks into their respective duffel bags I can haul all eight boats (260 pounds total) in one trip.
Nice,
wish I could do the same
(you know, when & if need to escape a hurricane that gets a bit too close - wait a minute, need to go check that 2pm forecast update)

@willowleaf said:
Skin on frame kayaks and surf skis, both rigid and folding versions, have indeed been used for racing. They are more common in Europe:

http://race.fit2paddle.com/C1159474119/E20051123005157/index.html

I’m thrilled that Nautiraid’s 2006 folding race kayak weighed 29.5 lbs. They paid attention to a racing champion on the weight issue. It’s also historically interesting that folding kayaks were raced in the 1936 Olympics. That was just after fiberglass was invented and before it was being used for boat hulls.

I’m not in any way opposed to SOF’s. I find them fascinating, would love to paddle one, visited 20 years ago with a fellow who made them in the islands north of Seattle, and became entranced with the idea of a baidarka after reading Dyson’s book.

But, Willowleaf, you’re trying to defend the indefensible – the narrow and perhaps totally unimportant question of whether a SOF hull can beat a modern composite hull in an ocean race, the paddlers being equal. There is no historical race evidence of which I’m aware that suggests that. But who cares, really, for all us non-racers. Having been away from this site for 2+ years, I was very interested to have read yesterday that you recently bought a Curtis Ladybug . . . canoe! Congratulations. I doubt that model would have been as popular as it was if it had exceeded 45 pounds.

@Celia I have been playing with the seating to get my body weight where I want it in relation to the buoyancy of the hull. Rolls nice. Took the original seat out, tried a foam seat, then tried a gel seat , then tried a thermorest self inflating seat. Took out all the thigh brace foam that the former owner had in it. Put some back in. took it out rolling between each change. Then did the next change. Hips are next. I like them a bit loose, but not too loose. Having some rotator cuff issues so had to quit for the day. This is a very fun kayak. The first time I paddled it, I was on Lake Superior…now I’m doing all the fitting on an inland lake so it’s a bit warmer to roll for a few hours and test.

I’ve been paddling Nordkapps for over 20 years…This seems to be one of the best. IT"S a KEEPER

I was talking about touring boats and touring conditions, not race-specific boats or racing at all, to begin with. Note that I said “similar boats”, as in touring or sea kayaks.

This excerpt (a report on a high performance Cape Falcon Kayak F1 SOF designed by Brian Schulz) better describes the performance characteristics of a skin on frame in challenging conditions than I can – the author in one instance was out with two other paddlers in high end composite sea kayaks, an NDK Explorer and Tiderace Xcite, and the F1 outperformed those in 30 mph winds and rough water.

https://www.adventuresportsnetwork.com/sport/paddle-sports/canoe-kayak/rides-david-bixbys-cape-falcon-f1-skin-on-frame-kayak/

Roym, I am glad to hear you are enjoying the boat! Jim loved how it went thru the water, it is slick, and I adored how it rolls. One of a handful of boats I had to stop with the paddle to avoid window shading. And that was with a very loose fit and no foot contact.

I have kept the Nordlow hoping to have a season where I could really take it out. But I want my roll solid on both sides before I do that. Unfortunately I started recovering from the loss of kayaking time due to Jim’s illness just in time for my stepmother’s health issues to ramp up. The latter is finally heading towards a more sane resolution and it looks like I will have the pool time I need this winter to get my left side back in operation. I am looking forward to that.