Someone shared experience via email
I got the following email from a helpful paddler. I’ll post it so that others can benefit as they see fit.
“One of my boats is a Mad River Guide, similar enough to the Wildfire/Yellowstone for the experience to be comparable. I don’t do – or want to do – a huge amount of whitewater, but the boat is adaptable enough to be able to do some of the fabled whitewater here in western N.C. I’m also large (6’ 6”, 250#, size 12 feet) and trying to stuff my feet beneath the seat doesn’t work well. And I’m long-torsoed, so I want to have the seat as low as possible when sitting and poking around quiet waters, as I do most of the time.
So I adapted the Guide, rather than buying something more perfectly suited to whitewater. My dealer had a Voyager pedestal (sold by Mad River) that has transverse holes fore and aft, like the Northwater saddle (http://www.northwater.com/html/saddles_knee_pads.html). I used four D-rings, mounted slightly in front of and behind the saddle so that I could adjust the fore-and-aft position of the saddle. The Northwater daisy chain would work even better, I think.
Instead of permanently mounting knee pads I got myself a 1”-thick piece of foam, 12” x 48”, and Velcro’d it into the boat. Two pieces of Velcro on either side, parallel to and just below the gunwales, hold it in very nicely. The 4’ length fits perfectly from between one gunwale, around the inside bottom and up to the other gunwale as a press fit. It can be removed very quickly and all that’s left behind is the Velcro; glue the soft part to the hull and it’s fine.
The seat/pedestal switch isn’t so quick, requiring removing the drops and the seat, then installing the pedestal. Frankly, the Wenonah Argosy setup looks as though it might work pretty well. Wenonah says “This method is not available on wood gunwales” about the adjustable plates, but I wonder if I couldn’t fabricate something similar that would work with wood gunwales.
I’m much happier with a pedestal in my Guide than buying a whitewater boat.”
The Wildfire…Fantastic Canoe
Revolutionary little boat. I have not had mine long enough to rave to much but I can say that
I love it so far and think you could push it pretty hard in mild white water if you set it up with a saddle and some bags. It’s no banana boat but responds very nicely to the paddle making it a favorite freestyle canoe too. I think it’s a perfect canoe for moving water but tends to hit a wall when paddling flat water. I’d say it fits paddlers best who are somewhere around 175 to 230 lbs. Everybody should have one for just goofing off.
I’ll bet the Placid Boatworks comes up with a boat to contend with the Wildfire before long…
Check out the new Rapidfire for 05 at http://www.placidboats.com/newpack.html I may have to get me one of those.
Think I beat you to it. :^)
Been following Placid Boat Works for some time and corresponded directly via e-mail for a few days. Called them today. Got to talk to both Joe Moore and Charlie Wilson. It seems somewhere in those great conversations I did order an expedition lay up RapidFire with a hung carbon seat. 29# 15' rocket sled of a solo canoe!
Happy Paddl'n!
>:^)
Mick
Wow nice can’t wait to see it
looks like a rocket ship.
I have a saddle in my MR Guide, and
have used a saddle in all of my open boats. But then, I’m also a long-time C-boater, so I’m very used to kneeling. Big feet are no big problem. I have size 14+ feet, and I can snake them in and out of my slalom C-1. (See cboats.net, racing boats, zealot.)
I think people will like kneeling LESS if they can’t get their ankles accustomed to lying flat on the bottom of the boat. Once accustomed, this is the most comfortable way to kneel. If you have to kneel with your feet up on your toes like a ballet dancer, your knees will be flexed more, and you will have more foot AND knee discomfort.
What about thigh straps
Don’t think I’ll go as far as installing a saddle in my Yellowstone, but I was thinking about installing thigh straps. Has anyone installed thigh straps? How did it work out?
I thought about a saddle for my wildfire
In retrospect I am glad I didn’t do it. I ended up lowering the seat about an inch and a quarter and fell in love with the boat all over again. I definitely can’t kneel in it any more but I can’t say I miss being able to. No regrets lowering the seat.
What’ll bag you for one of those?
Looks pretty sweet!
I noticed that on your cool pics
Beautiful little creek you’ve got there. What’s the duct tape for though?
Counting on it!
Wanted the speed of a Magic, but did not like it’s handling as I like boats easier to turn, etc. Almost bought a Magic. Sure am glad I put that off! At a foot shorter the RapidFire should handle better and be as fast or very nearly so. The ratio of length to width of the RapidFire is 7.5. The Magic is 7.25.
Happy Paddl’n!
:^)
Mick
Less expensive than like Bell canoes.
They are quite a bit less expensive than Bells of similar specs and materials.
I will pay at least $500.00 less than I would have to for a new Bell Merlin II or Magic in almost the identical lay up and trim. The RapidFire will be made of better materials (the resin is sort of a combination of what pro racers and Kruger Canoes use if I uderstood corrently), and the hull will be lighter as well.
Any fans of Free Style paddling or high performance small solo canoes should watch the Placid Boatworks site closely! There are a lot of things happening, like revamping (souping up) some of the designs, Placid taking possession of ALL the "Fire" boats, and so on ...
Happy Paddl'n!
>:^)
Mick
Well I tink you will find
it’s very much like the Magic only scaled down, 27.5 beam vs 29 and only 11 deep vs 12.5 rocker is only 1/4" different and is advertised as “Tracks like a train” and is a modern pack canoe designed for double blade, sit on the floor.
Whats the duct tape for?It holds my ass
until I get some material to replace the seat.
kneeling thwart
I’m working on a kneeling thwart in my Bell Magic. (BTW Mick, my shoulder is doing okay and I have a Zaveral paddle on order). I kneel in the canoe and don’t like the stock seat as the back edge is in the way of my heel-even with the seat fully raised.
I purchased a nice piece of walnut from a local lumber company and have the thwart well under way. It should look good and be solid when I am done with it. I have finished with the router work and now I need to find someone with a drill press.
I take my dog with me when I paddle so being able to kneel makes me feel more stable and better able to adjust to her movements. The Magic is narrow enough that I can press the outside of my knees against the hull very easily. Now, I just need some 1/2" minicell foam. Anyone know of where I can order some?
I was out today with the ice almost gone from the lake. I really enjoy listening to the ice break up-its magical. I thought it was thin enough to plow into-but it wasn’t and I was lucky the dog didn’t get too crazy when we rammed it and stopped dead.
Kneeling thwart too
I’m 6’, 180 lb., size 11 feet. I was not totally comfortable with the factory seat in my Wildfire RX (before Bell changed the name). Feet were tight, and I thought about wrenching a knee going over, or worse. Stability while sitting was marginal. No way would I lower the seat, as this is an RX boat for class I and II. I have to be able to kneel. I’m lucky enough to have other craft for tripping, lakes, and fishing, so I was OK dedicating this boat to light whitewater. I felt like a pedestal was too radical for this application. The kneeling thwart is beautiful, dark cherry I think, the installation was an afternoon. I’m happy with the trade off: much better for white water, but I can’t easily sit and stretch my bones as well on the flats. If your primary use is light whitewater, consider the kneeling thwart. I think I bought the kneeling thwart direct from Bell.
I liked NRS for minicell, but that was some years ago. You might try their website.
I hear a lot of you saying you don’t
like to sit in a wildfire in class 2 ww. That is what the boat seems to be best suited for. I think that is why they put a seat in it? I paddle the boat mostly on very easy ww with a very light load other than my own (220 lbs) with an occasional beer cooler. Lowering the seat a little more than an inch made a huge difference. I am glad I lowered the seat and I thank Mike McCrea for encouraging me to do so.
Sometimes I sit in the boat for days at a time and I paddle less ww than many of you guys. I found that a comfortable seat height was far more important to me than the ability to kneel safely occasionally.
Anyways, I guess the thing that drove me away from wanting to kneel (besides being very uncomfortable for me) was the very real possibility of getting twisted up in the boat during a capsize. My feet are not huge (size 10-1/2) and I felt as though there was not enough room under the factory seat to allow for a hasty exit.
The lowered seat is wicked comfortable to paddle from. I cut some pieces of closet rod for spacers. In less than a half an hour I had a much better boat for my needs.
Scott, it’s only good for the lower half
of class 2, especially if you persist in sitting rather than kneeling.
The original issue in this thread is whether to put a pedestal seat in a Wildfire or Yellowstone so as to have optimum control, with ease of extracting feet because they aren’t stuck under a kneeling thwart or seat.
I really push boats hard in class 2. I could not possibly paddle my MR Guide, or even my MR Synergy, in class 2, the way I paddle, without kneeling on a proper pedestal. Those who sit while maneuvering in strong whitewater will need to sit in a WW kayak.
Hey Johns, a word of encouragement
You don’t need a drill press just a steady hand and maybe a beer, oh and a long drill bit or if you are good you can drill the drops from both sides and have the holes still meet up. Pratice on some scrap wood.
Wildfire/Yellowstone & 13s
To continue the discussion regarding your question Brian, here’s my two cents worth (worth every penny I’m sure). Pedestals/foam saddles are appropriate for dedicated WW boats - a Yellowstone/Wildfire is not a WW boat. They are CI-II creek/small river canoes and as such they excel. In my opinion pedestals in such a canoe are just too limiting – at least for me. I adjusted the seat in my Wildfire RX so that it’s at a comfortable angle/height for 3 point kneeling (with my size 13s under the seat) and also comfortable for occasional sitting (cross legged, feet forward, traveling position – whatever). It’s no problem at all to adjust the seat in a Wildfire/Yellowstone at an angle/height to be able to safety get my feet under easily – and out just as easily as needed. There’s plenty of room once the seat is adjusted. With a pedestal a paddler’s body placement is restricted to basically one position: kneeling with a knee in each chine. Similarly (though opposite) lowing the seat establishes limits… it limits the paddler to sitting only. These approaches not only limit the wide variety of kneeling/sitting positions (this variety is one of the best features of this canoe) but also limit shifting body weight for Freestyle maneuvers. For the type of paddling I enjoy in a solo canoe in up to CII I want to be able to shift my body weight (and my knees) forward/back and from side to side freely. Call it what you will: Freestyle, advanced quiet water maneuvers, what ever… Many of the “canoe dance” techniques are as dependant on weight shifts, knee/body placements and heeling as they are on paddle placement. Well into my fifth decade and heading for my sixth I’m pleased I can still kneel and dance with my boat as I enjoy the potential of a solo canoe to the best of my abilities. Instead of lowering the seat in my Wildfire RX or installing a pedestal I raised it and set it at an angle that was comfortable for me. My wife also has a WF which I customized to fit her body. As I said earlier, that’s just my two cents worth… - Randall
Maybe you are sitting, not kneeling.
Hey David! Was just wondering a few days ago how you were doing. Steve and I were comparing your old Magic and my Merlin II to the new "scran-jet" from Placid Boatworks, the Rapidfire. It is a foot shorter, but it's ratio is 7.50; better than that of the Magic at 7.25 and the Merlin at 6.95. Very glad to hear your shoulder is doing better!
Kneeling too far back on a kneeling seat is actually sitting, not kneeling?
I do not believe that your heels should be hitting the back edge of the seat if you are in fact kneeling. It is my understanding that when kneeling your butt should be resting against and on the front edge of the seat and not sitting on the seat. If you are on the seat, which would in fact put your heels under the rear edge of the seat, you are just sitting with your legs folded back under you and not actually kneeling. When kneeling the majority of your weight needs to be lower in the boat and resting on your knees for better control. That is the reason for kneeling; stability and control.
Your knees should be spread out to the sides of the canoe. Leaning your butt against the seat with your knees spread now puts your heels outside your butt, and unless you have some strange anatomy proportions your heels should be up in or just below the open spaces between the front and rear seat support bars, and respectively between each outside of the seat and the corresponding gunwale.
This is also the way I see most other serious paddlers using their slanted kneeling seats.
My shoe size? Well, I normally wear size 11, but I have heel spurs and need a size 13 to accommodate the inserts I need for the hiking/portaging parts of canoeing.
This has always worked for me and my size 13s in my '01 WildFire (YellowStone). The seat is 9" at center of front edge and 10-1/2" at center of rear edge. I raised the seat 1" in front and 1-1/2" in the rear which gives it a better slant and provides more heel clearance.
Happy Paddl'n!
>:^)
Mick