Suggestions for best "rough water" kayak

Don’t forget
to look for a used plastic Skerray or Avocet.

nope
Once one begins grading risk (i.e. needless vs. calculated) you’ve crossed a line in order to rationalize risky behavior.



Quick question: does the Coast Guard practice and drill in bad weather?



Quick answer: not on purpose.

Really?
"To support those missions, training is a big part of the job as well, said Coast Guard Senior Chief Petty Officer Gordon Muse, who is the base’s top enlisted man. “If we are not doing missions, then training is very big,” he explains. “If there’s nothing else to do, then we do training.”



It’s especially important to train in bad weather, Muse said, particularly with the 47-foot heavy-weather boat that’s seen in the commercial. The boat is nearly indestructible, and designed to handle 30-foot seas and a 20-foot breaking surf.



“You want to train in the environment you’re going to be in,” he said. “In other words, you don’t want to wait until it’s 2 o’clock in the morning in a storm to be out in 6- to 8-foot Seas. So when you get the opportunity you try to go out in it.”



However, around the Chesapeake Bay, the weather is fairly good and the seas relatively calm most days. And, Harper said, the opportunities to train in rough seas are few. Even in bad conditions, the waves reach only about 8 to 10 feet, he said.



“That’s not bad,” Harper said, sounding disappointed. “You go to the West Coast and you’ve got 20- to 30-foot seas. Cape Hatteras in North Carolina has got big seas, too.”



http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=25243

Artic Tern on Lake Erie
On the flip side to Ness’s boat, the tern (and Ness will attest to this) simply rides way too high in the water. The high volumn on this hard chine design is a bear to deal with in sine and swells. Go with a lower volumn (maby multichine?) if you can get away with it.

nice try
The son of a good friend is a BM1 and is the skipper of a 47-foot MLB on the Oregon Coast.



He says they only train on milder days and have strict orders not to do any rollovers when training because too much stuff gets broken (antennas, etc.).



Sure they train in weather that is not optimal for boating, but their “rough” weather training is in conditions that are well below what their vessel is rated to withstand, so it’s not really rough weather training from that perspective.




And by that standard of "mild"
none of us are out on rough days, either.

you’re wrong

– Last Updated: Aug-09-07 2:12 PM EST –

"Not optimal for boating"? That statement presumes some level of risk. You're breaking your own rule.

You have to assess risk in order to determine that it is risk. You're talking in circles to validate your argument.

That is not true…
I have a friend who is a Coastie who practices in life boats at the mouth of the Columbia river in Hellacious wind/ swell events. The waves there are enormous.

too much fun
You guys are having way too much fun with this and I can well understand how important it is to you all to continue living in your alternative reality.



I would imagine if we went to a sex club in the nearest big city and admonished those in attendance for not practicing safe sex we’d get a similar response to what I’m getting here.



For the record, I have no objection if paddlers like yourselves enjoy taking risks. That’s why my (and your) tax dollars support the Coast Guard and your local search and rescue.



Those that work for these agencies also get off on adrenaline rushes and without you folks challenging the elements their jobs would be quite boring; sortof like the Maytag repairman.

you replied to your own post

Why not others?
Definitely the Chatham’s, but also Impex models, Foster models, Kajak Sport, Valley’s, Tempests other models, etc.



I gave up my NDK for a non-Brit boat that “for me” outperforms it. Bowler, don’t get too star struck OK. There is a planet full of superb water craft, and I’ll add that there are some other “waterpeople” of astonishing capability around the globe other than Brits.



You’re just infatuated and that’s understandable. I think you’ll grow out of that.

You’ll retain the well deserved respect, but your world will expand…I hope for you.

SALTY!!!
a lot of people on this forum demonstrate a great deal of respect for your understanding and advice regarding boats and paddling in general.



but for crissakes, read your last post. leave out the condescension- it’s bloody rude you go too far!

How???
Look, I have huge respect for Dennis!! The man has done a lot for the sport and he’s the real deal. I believe he would agree fully with me here that his boats, though excellent examples, are NOT the only options for rough water kayaks!!

All I am saying is there are many choices, many of which i dont even know about, that would be excellent. Bowler is a BCU follower and gave predictable advice. I say it’s a very small portion of the market, and very narrow minded, and biased. That’s all.

There Is "Predictability…"
to certain answers to certain questions by certain people. But, in fairness, it ain’t just the “star strucked” crowd though. I think if one has a different opinion, or info of additional value, then just post it up.



I think we all have a “koolaid” flavor that we favor. I’ve come to the conclusion that actively trying to convince someone that his/her koolaid isn’t the only flavor is a waste of time. Besides… Do I really want a lot of folks “lining up” aat my favorite store and drinking my brand of kool aid…? :wink:



sing



Pink koolaid is the bestest flavor. :slight_smile:

British boats…

– Last Updated: Aug-10-07 5:22 AM EST –

I was not trying to imply that the other boats that Salty mentioned are not excellent rough water boats....
but given that the poster appears to be a beginner I think that that makes a huge difference.

I did have the Chatham in my list....but on certain boats like the Nigel Foster boats I would agree that they are great boats, but not really for a beginner.

You are right that perhaps I should have mentioned Impex as well. Definitely the Tempests (I overlooked those).

However, my point was that for a BEGINNER who needs a boat that is easy for him to paddle with his skill level and wants it to be unlimited in rough water capability, and wants something that will inspire confidence (my own assumpition based on his experience), I would argue that it would be hard to beat an Explorer.

That is not becuase of being infatuated with British boats, but because I think it is pretty true and probably fairly well accepted. Regardless of where it is made it is truly a good boat for an advancing beginner who wants to be comfortable and capable in rough water.

I also agree with the poster above who states that there are lots of other rough water boats that are great in the hands of the right person, but not right for a beginner (Nordkapp LV for instance I would think). My Greenlander Pro does quite well in rough water, but probably not good for this individual.

It just would be hard to beat an Explorer in this particular case. Not being biased. I think that boat is one that almost automatically comes to mind when one looks at the criteria this individual is looking for. Definitely it would be on the short list.

Oh and by the way....about the Koolaid....I have owned a Chatham and a Dagger Meridian....and very nearly bought a Nigel Foster boat. Would own an Impex any day (and probably will someday at some point I would think), also would be happy to own a Kajaksport. Also very nearly bought an Azul Sultan now made by Riot. So for the record, I am not as British bound as you might think.


Matt

Not That I Care (My Favorite Line)…

– Last Updated: Aug-10-07 5:58 AM EST –

but if we are to surmise that the orginial poster is a "beginner" -- quite possible given the "generality" of the question and the lack of specifics, wouldn't it be better to ask for clarification i.e., what do you mean by "rough", what boat do you paddle now?, how does it work for you in what you consider to be "rough" conditions?, etc. It may well be that he already has one of the "rough" water boats being suggested. The issue is perhaps not with the particular boat but with the driver. Then suggestions for a "rough water" boat become moot unless we think a boat can grant magical powers to a beginner to paddle "rough" water. Heck, some of the "rough" water described by some here, I consider benign. While other may consider likewise my "rough water" as benign. What I do know is that in my "rough" conditions, I don't care what boat you give to a "beginner" it ain't going to "inspire" any confidence in him/her, or take care of him/her. In my "rough" conditions, a beginner is going to get trashed, regardless of boat.

And, if the original poster is not a beginner, than s/he should understand that the more specifics given, then then more "helpful" folks (with "rough" water experience) can be with their suggestions.

sing

Salty responses…

– Last Updated: Aug-10-07 8:14 AM EST –

For whatever reason, Salty usually sounds in writing as though anyone who likes NDK boats at all has been consumed by a cult rather than just has an appreciation for that boat. I've been assumed to think a number of things that I don't (I suspect the tendency is stronger with women), and you'd never know that I have a Vela under the porch as well and have quite decent respect for a number of other boats many of which are not British-made. Same way about the BCU, despite various notes on the quite pragmatic reasons for having something on paper. (for traveling in retirement).

I don't know if the person comes off the same way as the writing, but I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to clarify to Salty that you have not been mind-melded by Nigel Dennis. It doesn't seem to have much impact, and aside from that particular quirk he has substantial advice to offer.

As to the original post, I agree that a better discussion of what is meant by rough water might help. I've had difficulty recommending anything on this one because of confusion about what is needed.

Design Intent

– Last Updated: Aug-10-07 10:23 AM EST –

"With the Romany Explorer, we aimed to produce a user-friendly intermediate-to-advanced sea kayak that an average paddler can paddle in advanced conditions." Nigel Dennis.

I think it fair to say they met their design intent. I also think it fair to say those traits enable good paddlers to explore increasing rough stuff with confidence.

As to whether that means it is a great rough water boat or a high performance boat for rough water I do not know. Personally, it just does not appeal to me, even if it can make me look good doing all the BCU stroke stuff.

I have no idea what people mean here when they say "rough water", "performance", etc. All I think I may know on this issue is that if I spend enough time is almost any decent boat, I can use it in most any conditions or venues of interest to me or which I may find myself confronting. Some have been barge like, some have been comfy, some have been fun, and some have had a very "exciting" edge; but they all "work" once you know how to use them. As a result, some very different boats ( Force4 v. Anas Acuta) have felt like great boats for "rough" water to me, but for different reasons.

Which side of the state are you on?
If you are on the east side, Riversidekayak.com is your best bet.



If you are in SW michigan, Leesports.com is your best bet. Or Jim mulder at Gun Lake Paddle Sports.



If you are in GR outpost or bill and paul’s, (talk to John Holmes) are great shops.



If you are up north, I think it is backcountry that carries valley.



Which boat fits you is a good question. Email me if you want and we can talk.


Again with the fricken

– Last Updated: Aug-10-07 10:42 AM EST –

tax dollars crap. Like chewin' foil. If we had emoticons on this web site, I'd add about 50 pairs of rolling eyes.

Yes, the CG does practice in rough weather. Sometimes, pretty damn rough, especially at Cape D. in Illwaco, WA.

Yes, the whole idea is not to roll the MLB (motor life boat), crash the helo or flip the Safe Boat.

Yes, it's a lot of flippin' paperwork if you do, followed by hot washes and safety stand downs.

Each CG asset (boat, cutter, helicopter, plane) has a maximum operational limit for weather. I'm fixin' to leave for a day of paddling so I'm presently not going to list 'em all. Crews have operational time limits as well. After X amount of hours underway time my crew is bagged and a lot of folks need to be notified.

One of 3 things happen:
1) Everyone (chain of command, other CG units, local L/E and SAR agencies) are notified that we can not respond to SAR, period, and they pick up the slack.
2) We respond to -urgent- SAR only.
3) We call in a relief crew.

It all depends on the situation and the CG unit. Some units have 2 duty crews on at a time to try and avoid the above. If the weather exceeds the op limits of an asset, they don't go out. A waiver -might- be considered, in certain situations, by the Commanding Officer. Gone are the days of our motto "You have to go out, you don't have to come back."

Back to the question. I'm not sure what the best kayak is for rough water, but I sure miss my Necky Eskia. It kicked some fricken booty in big wind waves and rough seas. I never felt tippy or over my head. I'd use another boat on a regular flatwater paddle, unless it was for a newbie who needs a stable platform. The cockpit's roomy and comfy, but takes too much from storage and it tracks like crap without the rudder.