Suggestions for best "rough water" kayak

There Is "Predictability…"
to certain answers to certain questions by certain people. But, in fairness, it ain’t just the “star strucked” crowd though. I think if one has a different opinion, or info of additional value, then just post it up.



I think we all have a “koolaid” flavor that we favor. I’ve come to the conclusion that actively trying to convince someone that his/her koolaid isn’t the only flavor is a waste of time. Besides… Do I really want a lot of folks “lining up” aat my favorite store and drinking my brand of kool aid…? :wink:



sing



Pink koolaid is the bestest flavor. :slight_smile:

British boats…

– Last Updated: Aug-10-07 5:22 AM EST –

I was not trying to imply that the other boats that Salty mentioned are not excellent rough water boats....
but given that the poster appears to be a beginner I think that that makes a huge difference.

I did have the Chatham in my list....but on certain boats like the Nigel Foster boats I would agree that they are great boats, but not really for a beginner.

You are right that perhaps I should have mentioned Impex as well. Definitely the Tempests (I overlooked those).

However, my point was that for a BEGINNER who needs a boat that is easy for him to paddle with his skill level and wants it to be unlimited in rough water capability, and wants something that will inspire confidence (my own assumpition based on his experience), I would argue that it would be hard to beat an Explorer.

That is not becuase of being infatuated with British boats, but because I think it is pretty true and probably fairly well accepted. Regardless of where it is made it is truly a good boat for an advancing beginner who wants to be comfortable and capable in rough water.

I also agree with the poster above who states that there are lots of other rough water boats that are great in the hands of the right person, but not right for a beginner (Nordkapp LV for instance I would think). My Greenlander Pro does quite well in rough water, but probably not good for this individual.

It just would be hard to beat an Explorer in this particular case. Not being biased. I think that boat is one that almost automatically comes to mind when one looks at the criteria this individual is looking for. Definitely it would be on the short list.

Oh and by the way....about the Koolaid....I have owned a Chatham and a Dagger Meridian....and very nearly bought a Nigel Foster boat. Would own an Impex any day (and probably will someday at some point I would think), also would be happy to own a Kajaksport. Also very nearly bought an Azul Sultan now made by Riot. So for the record, I am not as British bound as you might think.


Matt

Not That I Care (My Favorite Line)…

– Last Updated: Aug-10-07 5:58 AM EST –

but if we are to surmise that the orginial poster is a "beginner" -- quite possible given the "generality" of the question and the lack of specifics, wouldn't it be better to ask for clarification i.e., what do you mean by "rough", what boat do you paddle now?, how does it work for you in what you consider to be "rough" conditions?, etc. It may well be that he already has one of the "rough" water boats being suggested. The issue is perhaps not with the particular boat but with the driver. Then suggestions for a "rough water" boat become moot unless we think a boat can grant magical powers to a beginner to paddle "rough" water. Heck, some of the "rough" water described by some here, I consider benign. While other may consider likewise my "rough water" as benign. What I do know is that in my "rough" conditions, I don't care what boat you give to a "beginner" it ain't going to "inspire" any confidence in him/her, or take care of him/her. In my "rough" conditions, a beginner is going to get trashed, regardless of boat.

And, if the original poster is not a beginner, than s/he should understand that the more specifics given, then then more "helpful" folks (with "rough" water experience) can be with their suggestions.

sing

Salty responses…

– Last Updated: Aug-10-07 8:14 AM EST –

For whatever reason, Salty usually sounds in writing as though anyone who likes NDK boats at all has been consumed by a cult rather than just has an appreciation for that boat. I've been assumed to think a number of things that I don't (I suspect the tendency is stronger with women), and you'd never know that I have a Vela under the porch as well and have quite decent respect for a number of other boats many of which are not British-made. Same way about the BCU, despite various notes on the quite pragmatic reasons for having something on paper. (for traveling in retirement).

I don't know if the person comes off the same way as the writing, but I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to clarify to Salty that you have not been mind-melded by Nigel Dennis. It doesn't seem to have much impact, and aside from that particular quirk he has substantial advice to offer.

As to the original post, I agree that a better discussion of what is meant by rough water might help. I've had difficulty recommending anything on this one because of confusion about what is needed.

Design Intent

– Last Updated: Aug-10-07 10:23 AM EST –

"With the Romany Explorer, we aimed to produce a user-friendly intermediate-to-advanced sea kayak that an average paddler can paddle in advanced conditions." Nigel Dennis.

I think it fair to say they met their design intent. I also think it fair to say those traits enable good paddlers to explore increasing rough stuff with confidence.

As to whether that means it is a great rough water boat or a high performance boat for rough water I do not know. Personally, it just does not appeal to me, even if it can make me look good doing all the BCU stroke stuff.

I have no idea what people mean here when they say "rough water", "performance", etc. All I think I may know on this issue is that if I spend enough time is almost any decent boat, I can use it in most any conditions or venues of interest to me or which I may find myself confronting. Some have been barge like, some have been comfy, some have been fun, and some have had a very "exciting" edge; but they all "work" once you know how to use them. As a result, some very different boats ( Force4 v. Anas Acuta) have felt like great boats for "rough" water to me, but for different reasons.

Which side of the state are you on?
If you are on the east side, Riversidekayak.com is your best bet.



If you are in SW michigan, Leesports.com is your best bet. Or Jim mulder at Gun Lake Paddle Sports.



If you are in GR outpost or bill and paul’s, (talk to John Holmes) are great shops.



If you are up north, I think it is backcountry that carries valley.



Which boat fits you is a good question. Email me if you want and we can talk.


Again with the fricken

– Last Updated: Aug-10-07 10:42 AM EST –

tax dollars crap. Like chewin' foil. If we had emoticons on this web site, I'd add about 50 pairs of rolling eyes.

Yes, the CG does practice in rough weather. Sometimes, pretty damn rough, especially at Cape D. in Illwaco, WA.

Yes, the whole idea is not to roll the MLB (motor life boat), crash the helo or flip the Safe Boat.

Yes, it's a lot of flippin' paperwork if you do, followed by hot washes and safety stand downs.

Each CG asset (boat, cutter, helicopter, plane) has a maximum operational limit for weather. I'm fixin' to leave for a day of paddling so I'm presently not going to list 'em all. Crews have operational time limits as well. After X amount of hours underway time my crew is bagged and a lot of folks need to be notified.

One of 3 things happen:
1) Everyone (chain of command, other CG units, local L/E and SAR agencies) are notified that we can not respond to SAR, period, and they pick up the slack.
2) We respond to -urgent- SAR only.
3) We call in a relief crew.

It all depends on the situation and the CG unit. Some units have 2 duty crews on at a time to try and avoid the above. If the weather exceeds the op limits of an asset, they don't go out. A waiver -might- be considered, in certain situations, by the Commanding Officer. Gone are the days of our motto "You have to go out, you don't have to come back."

Back to the question. I'm not sure what the best kayak is for rough water, but I sure miss my Necky Eskia. It kicked some fricken booty in big wind waves and rough seas. I never felt tippy or over my head. I'd use another boat on a regular flatwater paddle, unless it was for a newbie who needs a stable platform. The cockpit's roomy and comfy, but takes too much from storage and it tracks like crap without the rudder.

rough water boats
I’m assuming that your original question has been answered—there are a number of boats, both british and american which meet the criteria of being “good” in “rough” water and they have been listed in the posts above—there may be others, equally as good, which have not been listed since. But you shouldn’t ignore the advice about staying on the beach if the water and weather is above your skill level(if you have to ask it probably is) but just what your skill level is will change significantly over time. I used to think anything more than a ripple and any passage over 200 yards was dangerous. As my skill level increased and as I pushed the limits, very incremently I might add, I became more comfortable with so-called rough conditions—My idea of rough water now is significantly changed from what it was 7 years ago. Still, there is a limit when I will leave my boat on the beach and do something else for the day–and when I do “push the limits” I do so in a very controlled manner, making sure I have bailout points along my route where I can get off the water if I have to–also in those types of conditions I don’t go out alone but with experienced companions and am also fully equipped with appropriate clothing and gear. And still there are times when I stay on the beach—am I afraid to go out then?—yup you bet.

Wow!
For the record I think NDK boats are outstanding and I have many many nautical miles in them! I have owned and paddled many Brit boats and I like them. What I’m trying to get across, and doing so poorly, is that there are many great kayaks in the world and certainly more than three possibilities to the original posters question! You’ll note that my first response focused on design variables rather than brands.

I hope the poster will explore many options and think for themselves, rather than follow some guys advice and focus on three boats! Maybe my responses will help, and that’s all I care about.

Question on Variables
In your first post you mentioned full chines and an reserve of stability. Did you mean they tend to have a hard chine or just a well defined which may be hard or somewhat rounded chine, and what does this “give” a boat that makes it a good rough water boat. When you say extra reserve stability do you mean a big “shoulder” when the boat is leaned at a certain point or just a nice linear feel that enables you to lean the boat over and back easily?

I surmise some would like the former to give a nice place from where they can exert force to move the boat and some would like the latter for quick response when the water is throwing you about.

Yes eel
"I" think boats with a full chine profile throughout most of their length, regardless of whether the edges are sharp or soft, combined with a decent amount or rocker, makes for a better rough water boat. These variables make these boats less effecive for straight line calm water paddling. As you say, this stability on edge is helpful in rough conditions as it gives the skilled paddler something to work off of, and the less skilled paddler some confidence. We see these design traits in many boats including models from NDK’s, Valley, Necky, WS, Impex, Kajak Sport, Mariner, CD, etc…

I’ve seen some Japanese and Kiwi boats that look pretty cool as well.


only 3 boats
My only point in narrowing the field down this much (which is probably too narrow) is that if the paddler is a beginner, then the recommendations of Nigel Foster Legend, Nordkapp etc. probably are not optimal. Great rough water boats for sure, but not necessarily “confidence inspiring” beginners boats.



I will reiterate what I have said in previous posts about what I have found out about boats in my short experience…they’re all good…just different

Heck,
If you want a boat for rough conditions, why not a whitewater creekboat? You won’t get anywhere in a hurry, but you’ll be bobbing along like a cork.



It doesn’t even have to be British…:wink:

My wife is away for two weeks…
I’ve got a big block of styrofoam in the garage and and something is taking shape … wonder what kind of cool aide i have been drinking.


though it could be a Birt boat…
Pyranha makes great whitewater boats :wink:

Well made point
You have to remember before NDK existed there were boats considered to be rough water boats like the Nordcapp. Why, because Frank Goodman used it around the Cape of Good Horn. It also had low stability which meant that it required skill and that also fortified the reputation. Derek crossed the north sea in an Orion - must be a good rough water boat. Then some unknown kid crossed all the Great Lakes in a Necky plastic piece of crap and the kayking world shut up about boats for awhile.



I paddle with a club reguarly in usually intermediate conditions and every boat imaginable arrives and sometimes it gets pretty nasty. Even (god forbid) Outer Islands too. All the boats handle it fine. Better paddlers just handle it easier.



One thing that NDK proved to the world is that initial stability is a good thing.

Creeker probably best
Pretty skimpy space for that jug of hot tea in a playboat.

My God, my Kool Aid index just keeps
rising. I have a brit river boat, too!



Dogmaticus

Gone from Syllabus
I should not mention this, but notice the whole hot drink thing in terms of being part of kit was radically changed in new syllabus? As in removed and replaced with something requiring the demonstration of judgment as to what to have. Good stuff in new syllabus seems to me.

choke
almost swallowed that condescension