Weathercocking in a Gale???

a bit more on sweeps
There is always something more!



If the wind is new and hasn’t developed much waves, it is less necessary to use the downwind sweep/upwind bow draw combo. Speed is again the key before attempting the turn, next, apply short, high cadence half sweeps at the bow.

The reason why is also related to wind speed and available muscular strength, but also, a slower, more powerful full sweep can work against you. As soon as the sweep passes amidships and towards the stern, there will be a wind speed where the paddlers strengthe cannot overcome the effect from the wind. The last half of the sweep will in fact anchor the stern, and the wind will pivot the boat downwind off the paddle! This, no matter how hard you squeeze.



BTW, understanding the effect of the wind on a kayak that is moving that is not moving is critical to getting the boat to do what you want without working too hard. It always amuses me to see paddlers using rudders, starting off from a dead stop, trying to go upwind in Force 4 or above…they are almost always surprised to find that the rudder doesn’t work very well! Again, think of the flag and flagpole analogy, and the reason should be clear. Answer? First, get going fast across the wind…and even consider putting the rudder up (boat design, paddler’s speed, and wind speed dependent).



And then there is the story about a kayaker who refused to put her skeg up when going into a strong quartering wind…and wondered why the boat kept falling off the wind. I had to stay at her stern and push it onto course with my bow, only because she just wouldn’t even try to put up her skeg!





Funny how we hold onto our preconceptions, when observation should prove otherwise.



karl

Two Points

– Last Updated: Feb-12-08 10:30 PM EST –

1. As Karl says, the ability to "jog to weather" is for all upon the sea in small vessels a critical function. I think the ease with which you can do it in a kayak is one very good good measure of its big water ability as is the ability to regain course after getting pointed downwind on the top of waves.

2. In my experience, after battling fierce winds and waves on a paddle, it is often rather humbling to check the buoy data for the closest buoys to ascertain actual wind speeds and wave heights.

Whenever you cannot make way, the odds are you will end up with a beam wind and sea if you cannot get headed into the wind or downwind if brave. If you are near a lee shore...good luck. Without making way, a kayak will not weathercock in my opinion nor will it leecock unless it is one very unbalanced boat.

Otterslide knows his stuff. Refreshing.

Forget the author, but
"Observation is a merciless critic of theory."

On the wall in my office…

try to avoid arm wrestling with Neptune.
Words of wisdom capping an extraordinarily informing essay.



Thank you very much!

Been There
It didn’t matter what I did with the skeg. The boat just wanted to stay locked in horizontally between waves.

I think that was nature’s way of telling me to get the hell off the water. That’s what I did.

Very interesting
Thank you for the thorough information. Sounds to be about what I was experiencing. I was working hard to get the boat to turn into the wind by picking up as much speed as possible, making an aggressive sweep and then using an agressive crossbow rudder transitioning into a bow draw and then a reverse sweep and still could not quite get turned up into the wind.



Seemed that I would get to about 11 oclock and then eventually get blown sideways. Almost seemed that a conventional bow rudder was more effective b/c I maintained more forward speed.



Going downwind was interesting. I could get turned down wind but about the only way I could stay in that direction was to maintain a stern rudder in the water. Seemed like doing so would lock the boat down wind to an extent and the upper blade would act as a sail. I would actually move downwind fairly well like this without paddling.



To address some of the questions raised…The wind was blowing pretty hard when I launched but not that hard. It definitely picked up when I was on the water.



I launched from a wind-protected launch site on a river than runs into the bay.



As a result getting out was not that bad.



I got out into the open water and played for a while.



Heading back in was when I hit the really strong winds. I was fairly far from the shore when they did hit.



Comfort level…I was fairly comfortable as the Explorer is a super stable boat. Given that it was the Chesapeake and not the ocean the water conditions were not too bad (smaller fetch) and I don’t find the Chesapeake a threatening place to paddle as you are near people, land, etc. No surf landings. If I were on the ocean it would have been different.



In the really big gusts I would lean into the wind and scull momentarily until the gust passed and then continue paddling.



I will admit though that I was having trouble controlling the boat on the way back b/c it kept turning sideways. Luckily though sideways was toward land at that point so that was okay. Mostly it was just tiring at that point. Once I got toward land I found protection from the wind and was able to parallel the shore back to the launch site. So paddling in such high winds was not a super big deal given the location where I was paddling. I WOULD NOT have felt very comfortable if I were on the ocean.



As to this being a fish story, beauford scale etc. I can tell you that the wind speed was documented by the forecasts and I can describe some indicators:



-excessive spray being blown across the water



-large trees in full motion



-wind damage to houses and trees



-walking very difficult



-driving in wind, very difficult (I went very slow on the way home as I did not feel comfortable with the boat on top in these conditions)



-traffic lights blown nearly sideways by gusting winds and held in that position until the gust passed



-large amounts of sand and small pebbles being propelled at high speed by the wind (my truck got sandblasted badly when making a U turn).



Put it this way. On my way back home it was so windy that I thought there may be a tornado in the area given the wind speeds and the darkening sky…and I have lived in Oklahoma where tornadoes are common.



So there are some indicators of the wind speed. Some of those are on the Beauford scale and some are not (like traffic lights blowing sideways perpendicular to the ground…don’t recall that being on it but it is a good indicator). Look at the Beauford scale and make your own determination as to what the wind speed was.



thanks for your help though. This has been very informative.





Matt

In a similar situation…

– Last Updated: Feb-13-08 11:34 AM EST –

It isn't strange. At some point of strength the wind will just pin the whole side of a boat and the associated waves will complicate things further. Otterslide, in a post above, describes exactly the situation four of us were in a couple of years ago, high winds with waves. Much better than I could even having been there.

We were out in winds that measured into the 30's standing on the shore afterwards, probably (slightly) more out there. We had a situation that required some turning around and reverse of course out in the middle of the channel. My Vela greatly profited from a bump on the bow to get turned at one point, the wind kept taking it at the top of a wave, and a much stronger paddler with us in his Explorer found that it worked much better to turn into the wind by turning backwards rather than working with the bow.

I resolved to remember the backwards thing - in hindsight he was probably doing something very similar to what Otterslide describes by focusing on turning the stern rather than the bow.

Your bio indicates BCU 4 Star
shouldn’t you already have knowledge to answer your own questions? You also state you were trying to run w/the wind without your skeg down in ‘a gale’ and wondered why your boat was weathercocking? Haven’t paddled any boat that didn’t try to broach in anything near those conditions w/the the skeg down, let alone up.

Rudder question.
Otterslide mentioned in his very good post that the rudder was not effective and the skeg should have been up to aid turning ability. What would be the case with an under hull rudder?

Matt
I don’t think it’s a fish story you were in very high winds, just that without a wind measuring device it’s guestimation on the numbers. When I paddled in the highest winds I ever paddled on the inland side of Assateague the waves never got higher than a foot but every top was blown off with horizonatal spray. The measurment of 30-35mph came from the closest wind measuring device on the weather radio.

Upwind turning
I also find turning upwind in a really strong wind easier by going fast backward, doing a back sweep with a strong upwind lean to initiate the turn upwind, then immediately doing a bow high brace turn on the downwind side, with as much downwind lean as you feel comfortable with depending on what the waves are doing right then. You can use a couple of quarter bow sweeps if you don’t quite make it. Fairly stable way too. I don’t know what is going on with pivot points and all that.

Peter

depends on the rest of the hull
I would think a long boat has LOTS of leverage working against a paddler so talking about a rudder in isolation misses what is being levered by the wind.

My $.02

– Last Updated: Feb-13-08 12:13 PM EST –

"Going downwind was interesting. I could get turned down wind but about the only way I could stay in that direction was to maintain a stern rudder in the water."

I don't know, but I've be told. Given the way the water moves in a wave, it is very hard for a kayak to run true down a wave and if you are talking short period, steep wind waves things can happen fast and hard in my limited experience. The manner in which a kayak broaches running downwind is likely a function of many things including the skill of the paddler to sense what is happening and take corrective actions before things go too far and the ability of the hull to respond. What Matt describes sounds about right to me since he was, I assume, basically surfing and needing to stern rudder to limit the broaching movement. Perhaps he could have caught it earlier and carved more down wave to turn the boat downwind, but the Explorer may not be the boat for that. I suspect it relies on other traits to be manageable in a following sea.

It would be interesting to see what those knowledgeable in this area think, but I have come to dimly see that in both rough water and heavy weather the traits in a boat I most value are the ability to telegraph what is happening and to quickly/easily respond to inputs. Of course these traits could be viewed as making a boat a pain to paddle, especially in calmer conditions. Given a choice between a staid boat and a lively boat, I am starting to see the value of the lively boat when things get "exciting". Seems counterintuitive perhaps.

As for Matt, 4* and questions. No such thing as a bad/stupid question, and to me it is a sign of intelligence and inquisitiveness to ask them. I suspect he is looking for more data to process as opposed to answers from on high. I rather doubt passing a 4* assessment says much if anything about a paddler's ability or knowledge in dealing with the conditions he described.

I about busted a gut…
…your killin’ me! :slight_smile:

Misunderstanding Otto’s Comments
I understood Ottoslide to have said that some paddlers who are ARE NOT MOVING forward through the water do not understand why the boat will not turn in to the wind when they push the pedals.



A rudder acts just like a skeg if there is no flow over it. If one wants to turn the boat into the wind without forward speed, the best thing to do is to flip up the rudder or skeg. Skegs and rudders tend to be a hindrance to slow speed maneuverability like one needs when parked in a rock garden or returning back to sea after a surf run into shore.



However when moving forward with sufficient speed a rudder will steer most kayaks in to the wind when asked. A deployed skeg will resist steering in to the wind no matter the boat’s speed.


I SECOND THAT!

Real life examples

– Last Updated: Feb-13-08 4:38 PM EST –

First, one has to understand that a rudder, or deployed skeg, moves the center of lateral resistance (CLR) back.
As Lee mentioned, the overall design still plays a big part. Most ruddered sea kayaks are designed to be fairly well balanced without having to use the rudder, ie, they track well. Putting the rudder down significantly moves the CLR sternwards. Most rough water racing kayaks are designed to operate integrally with the rudder, and will have much more stern rocker. The CLR isn't quite as far back, making these boats more responsive to turning upwind while making way when compared to most sea kayaks.

Lots of personal observations on that one! It is fun to put an accomplished paddler in a Looksha II, with the rudder up, and have them try to go straight! Very funny. More funny is the time a freind of mine ran over a log in his Eagle and took off his rudder. He was a loooong time getting back to the dock, doing a lot of zig-zagging. The Eagle was noted for quite a bit of stern rocker, compared to say, a Cleaver. Or, the tales of a top notch surf ski racer who lost his rudder on some rocks during a Sound Rowers Race. Went from first place to having to simply bail out because his boat was unmanageable without a rudder, as the light winds had their way with him.
Conclusion- boat design is critical in making any assumptions about a ruddered boat being able to turn upwind.

But Envy, I gotta say, the comment about only needing sufficient speed to make the rudder work well enough to turn a boat upwind is getting close to being dangerous advice.
Define "sufficient speed". I can. In 35+ knots of wind, a surf ski can be a major PITA to turn upwind- and remember, these are boats that should be easier to turn upwind than most sea kayaks. The usual technique (can you tell by now I used to race skis?) is to use the waves to surf downwind as fast as possible, and then use the rudder to turn, while trying to maintain the surfing speed. Lose that speed, and you wind up perpendicular to the wind, and having to try it all over again. The "sufficient speed" was not attainable by paddling speed alone.
The clinch to this is in the read of the incident last year in Bellingham, Wa, that resulted in a helicopter rescue of surf skiers. These were very strong paddlers, with a lot of top placements in races. They were out in what was at least 45kn wind, and they found out they could not turn upwind. It is obvious in reading their account that the very fact that they couldn't, and their surprise at their inability, was contributary to the incident.

karl

To be blunt
Peter, if you are using that technique to turn upwind in “strong wind”, I guarantee that some day you will be in for a surprise. You just haven’t experienced the sufficient “strong wind”!



Going backwards fast will set the boat for the stern to exhibit weather helm, ie, turn towards the weather. Going backwards, fast, is another method for getting the boat to face downwind.



Most critical, when the boat is going backwards, a reverse sweep stroke in high winds can have a shockingly quick and powerful outcome- the moment the reverse sweep is initiated, the back of the boat is held against the wind, the bow is left free, and the boat can swing downwind so fast, that you can have your boat facing downwind before you can say, “but, I am not even halfway through my reverse sweep!”.



The Columbia River Gorge, world famous to sail boarders, is my back yard. The comments I have been making on this subject have come about not just through personal experience, but by consensus by a quite a few very skilled boaters over a decade of play in that crucible.



karl

… and that is why…
… skegs are kept up when paddling upwind - and also raised briefly while doing any major turning (up or downwind) - particularly in snotty conditions. Skeg down is typically for running downwind. Partial skeg for quartering/beam (and all while moving as noted). As with anything there may be times when violating these skeg basics works - but mostly doing so is going to pretty counterproductive.



Even with no skeg or rudder - the conditions typically stirred up by higher winds often create steep short period stuff that can create some of the most challenging conditions to deal with. Can be nigh impossible to get a long boat out of the rough once broached in this stuff without some forward speed and getting that speed can require you go a bit out of your way. Larger waves and swell can be worked - quick pivot turns on peaks and such - where slop can’t.



Having to get a long kayak out of the trough and back upwind a few times can get very tiring. Best to do all you can not to get spun sideways. This can mean giving up the desired heading (if it’s not quite straight upwind) for a more head on course or a taking zig-zag approach of alternately attacking head/beam (neither really being optimal as on is slow and more stable, the other faster and more of a balance/control challenge) to get where you need to.