Weathercocking in a Gale???

Matt
I don’t think it’s a fish story you were in very high winds, just that without a wind measuring device it’s guestimation on the numbers. When I paddled in the highest winds I ever paddled on the inland side of Assateague the waves never got higher than a foot but every top was blown off with horizonatal spray. The measurment of 30-35mph came from the closest wind measuring device on the weather radio.

Upwind turning
I also find turning upwind in a really strong wind easier by going fast backward, doing a back sweep with a strong upwind lean to initiate the turn upwind, then immediately doing a bow high brace turn on the downwind side, with as much downwind lean as you feel comfortable with depending on what the waves are doing right then. You can use a couple of quarter bow sweeps if you don’t quite make it. Fairly stable way too. I don’t know what is going on with pivot points and all that.

Peter

depends on the rest of the hull
I would think a long boat has LOTS of leverage working against a paddler so talking about a rudder in isolation misses what is being levered by the wind.

My $.02

– Last Updated: Feb-13-08 12:13 PM EST –

"Going downwind was interesting. I could get turned down wind but about the only way I could stay in that direction was to maintain a stern rudder in the water."

I don't know, but I've be told. Given the way the water moves in a wave, it is very hard for a kayak to run true down a wave and if you are talking short period, steep wind waves things can happen fast and hard in my limited experience. The manner in which a kayak broaches running downwind is likely a function of many things including the skill of the paddler to sense what is happening and take corrective actions before things go too far and the ability of the hull to respond. What Matt describes sounds about right to me since he was, I assume, basically surfing and needing to stern rudder to limit the broaching movement. Perhaps he could have caught it earlier and carved more down wave to turn the boat downwind, but the Explorer may not be the boat for that. I suspect it relies on other traits to be manageable in a following sea.

It would be interesting to see what those knowledgeable in this area think, but I have come to dimly see that in both rough water and heavy weather the traits in a boat I most value are the ability to telegraph what is happening and to quickly/easily respond to inputs. Of course these traits could be viewed as making a boat a pain to paddle, especially in calmer conditions. Given a choice between a staid boat and a lively boat, I am starting to see the value of the lively boat when things get "exciting". Seems counterintuitive perhaps.

As for Matt, 4* and questions. No such thing as a bad/stupid question, and to me it is a sign of intelligence and inquisitiveness to ask them. I suspect he is looking for more data to process as opposed to answers from on high. I rather doubt passing a 4* assessment says much if anything about a paddler's ability or knowledge in dealing with the conditions he described.

I about busted a gut…
…your killin’ me! :slight_smile:

Misunderstanding Otto’s Comments
I understood Ottoslide to have said that some paddlers who are ARE NOT MOVING forward through the water do not understand why the boat will not turn in to the wind when they push the pedals.



A rudder acts just like a skeg if there is no flow over it. If one wants to turn the boat into the wind without forward speed, the best thing to do is to flip up the rudder or skeg. Skegs and rudders tend to be a hindrance to slow speed maneuverability like one needs when parked in a rock garden or returning back to sea after a surf run into shore.



However when moving forward with sufficient speed a rudder will steer most kayaks in to the wind when asked. A deployed skeg will resist steering in to the wind no matter the boat’s speed.


I SECOND THAT!

Real life examples

– Last Updated: Feb-13-08 4:38 PM EST –

First, one has to understand that a rudder, or deployed skeg, moves the center of lateral resistance (CLR) back.
As Lee mentioned, the overall design still plays a big part. Most ruddered sea kayaks are designed to be fairly well balanced without having to use the rudder, ie, they track well. Putting the rudder down significantly moves the CLR sternwards. Most rough water racing kayaks are designed to operate integrally with the rudder, and will have much more stern rocker. The CLR isn't quite as far back, making these boats more responsive to turning upwind while making way when compared to most sea kayaks.

Lots of personal observations on that one! It is fun to put an accomplished paddler in a Looksha II, with the rudder up, and have them try to go straight! Very funny. More funny is the time a freind of mine ran over a log in his Eagle and took off his rudder. He was a loooong time getting back to the dock, doing a lot of zig-zagging. The Eagle was noted for quite a bit of stern rocker, compared to say, a Cleaver. Or, the tales of a top notch surf ski racer who lost his rudder on some rocks during a Sound Rowers Race. Went from first place to having to simply bail out because his boat was unmanageable without a rudder, as the light winds had their way with him.
Conclusion- boat design is critical in making any assumptions about a ruddered boat being able to turn upwind.

But Envy, I gotta say, the comment about only needing sufficient speed to make the rudder work well enough to turn a boat upwind is getting close to being dangerous advice.
Define "sufficient speed". I can. In 35+ knots of wind, a surf ski can be a major PITA to turn upwind- and remember, these are boats that should be easier to turn upwind than most sea kayaks. The usual technique (can you tell by now I used to race skis?) is to use the waves to surf downwind as fast as possible, and then use the rudder to turn, while trying to maintain the surfing speed. Lose that speed, and you wind up perpendicular to the wind, and having to try it all over again. The "sufficient speed" was not attainable by paddling speed alone.
The clinch to this is in the read of the incident last year in Bellingham, Wa, that resulted in a helicopter rescue of surf skiers. These were very strong paddlers, with a lot of top placements in races. They were out in what was at least 45kn wind, and they found out they could not turn upwind. It is obvious in reading their account that the very fact that they couldn't, and their surprise at their inability, was contributary to the incident.

karl

To be blunt
Peter, if you are using that technique to turn upwind in “strong wind”, I guarantee that some day you will be in for a surprise. You just haven’t experienced the sufficient “strong wind”!



Going backwards fast will set the boat for the stern to exhibit weather helm, ie, turn towards the weather. Going backwards, fast, is another method for getting the boat to face downwind.



Most critical, when the boat is going backwards, a reverse sweep stroke in high winds can have a shockingly quick and powerful outcome- the moment the reverse sweep is initiated, the back of the boat is held against the wind, the bow is left free, and the boat can swing downwind so fast, that you can have your boat facing downwind before you can say, “but, I am not even halfway through my reverse sweep!”.



The Columbia River Gorge, world famous to sail boarders, is my back yard. The comments I have been making on this subject have come about not just through personal experience, but by consensus by a quite a few very skilled boaters over a decade of play in that crucible.



karl

… and that is why…
… skegs are kept up when paddling upwind - and also raised briefly while doing any major turning (up or downwind) - particularly in snotty conditions. Skeg down is typically for running downwind. Partial skeg for quartering/beam (and all while moving as noted). As with anything there may be times when violating these skeg basics works - but mostly doing so is going to pretty counterproductive.



Even with no skeg or rudder - the conditions typically stirred up by higher winds often create steep short period stuff that can create some of the most challenging conditions to deal with. Can be nigh impossible to get a long boat out of the rough once broached in this stuff without some forward speed and getting that speed can require you go a bit out of your way. Larger waves and swell can be worked - quick pivot turns on peaks and such - where slop can’t.



Having to get a long kayak out of the trough and back upwind a few times can get very tiring. Best to do all you can not to get spun sideways. This can mean giving up the desired heading (if it’s not quite straight upwind) for a more head on course or a taking zig-zag approach of alternately attacking head/beam (neither really being optimal as on is slow and more stable, the other faster and more of a balance/control challenge) to get where you need to.

Makes Sense to Me

– Last Updated: Feb-13-08 1:48 PM EST –

Otterslide's comments so far ring true to me. I'm no kayaker, but I've experienced this same problem when out in high winds in my guide-boat (I try not to mess with such winds in a solo canoe, though weather changes being what they are, that day will come). Regarding the comment that with enough speed, it should be possible to rudder the boat into the wind, I'd apply Salty's comment about observation being a merciless critic of theory. In a "typical" strong wind, forward speed makes my guide-boat weathercock because that forward speed creates a condition of having less pressure on each side of the stern than there is at the bow. However, if the wind gets REALLY strong, the boat gets pushed sideways at a speed that pretty much eliminates the difference in resistance to sideways skidding at the bow versus the stern, so the boat just feels "locked" in that sideways orientation. Believe me, with eight-foot oars being horsed in opposite directions, the turning power of a rowboat such as this greatly exceeds that of a stern-mounted rudder, yet getting the boat aimed into a very strong wind can still be a real battle. In the winds described by the original poster, I rather doubt that I could successfully make such a turn at all.

you guys
are way beyond me in skill and strength,that one trip six years ago was an eyeopener. There weren’t any usable waves, just a mess of shallow chop and unrelenting wind. It was the oddest experience to focus on putting the blade in exactly the right place with my guts lined up for the effort and it was like a little motor magically pointed me were I needed to go. The moment I lost focus or tried brute strength corrections ZOOOOOOM I was flying sideways in the Express.

Not getting stronger since I tried out a Chatham16 glass boat and that did it. I like being able to point the boat where I want to go.

Another good one Karl.
Seems like threads are getting more informative and accurate these days…perhaps a by product of sharing information over time?



Turning to wind even in a highly playful coastal touring boat can be tough. Last year my friend and I tested a couple of very playful boats in surf at Jordan River. Winds were gusting 50+ with trees falling…major storm.



We surfed a bit and had fun in blowing sleet, but neither of us could turn up wind without aggressive reverse sweeps prior to strong edging and forward sweeps. He is an former Olympic slalom coach, and designer, so skill was not the problem. Because the kayaks were so playful, we were able to work with that and have some fun. I’d hate to think of being in a big 18ft. tracker in those conditions.

Less criticism

– Last Updated: Feb-13-08 2:57 PM EST –

Re about threads - I am not sure that they are getting hugely more informative, but overall there seems to be less of people jumping on what others say with both feet. That'll automatically improve the content.
(Later add - and the likelihood of more people wanting to get into the discussion)

Perhaps, but also
some really experienced people posting technically accurate information.

Nice one GH … LOL


RE-read the post and you’ll see why I was not using the skeg.



Actually I have never paddled in conditions before where I HAD to use the skeg…generally is just an optional aid.



Weathercocking generally means turning into the wind, and yes I know exactly why a boat does that. Turning sideways to the wind is not something that I have experienced except in super high winds and did not quite make sense to me.



You probably need to re-read the post.



Matt

You knuckle-draggin’ animal!!!
You are one gutsy SOB Matt!!! I am too scared to even venture out into that kind of wind/waves much less alone!! The water is most likely colder up here in NE (34 degrees) but still think you must eat nails for breakfast and go fishing for great whites by slapping the water with your hand.



You be ‘way out there’ compared to me!! (but then, I am pretty timid)



:wink:



Scott

Call me nuts, but
When the wind whips up on Puget Sound, there are a few of us crazies who want to rush out and practice in it! However choose our location, gear and buddies carefully. This weekend we paddled to Alki Point, at the light house to face the 20 miles of fetch the South wind was throwing at the point. If you did not understand any of the wise words from Karl, this type of wind practice will acclimate you to what he was trying to tell you, and your brain will communicate in ways that you will understand. People learn in different ways, spoken words, book words, visually and or kinetically. You will figure out what works and what does not work so well in trying to navigate in high winds. It may help you get home safely some day. But be safe… in our situation, we had a point to hide behind. In other cases, we select a place where the wind will blow you onto the beach.

Karl, I was hoping someone would
reference that incident. I hate rubbing the puppy’s nose in the rug myself, but it was revealing and instructional. Recently one of their peers died doing a similar run in the same area.



Dogmaticus