Weathercocking in a Gale???

… and that is why…
… skegs are kept up when paddling upwind - and also raised briefly while doing any major turning (up or downwind) - particularly in snotty conditions. Skeg down is typically for running downwind. Partial skeg for quartering/beam (and all while moving as noted). As with anything there may be times when violating these skeg basics works - but mostly doing so is going to pretty counterproductive.



Even with no skeg or rudder - the conditions typically stirred up by higher winds often create steep short period stuff that can create some of the most challenging conditions to deal with. Can be nigh impossible to get a long boat out of the rough once broached in this stuff without some forward speed and getting that speed can require you go a bit out of your way. Larger waves and swell can be worked - quick pivot turns on peaks and such - where slop can’t.



Having to get a long kayak out of the trough and back upwind a few times can get very tiring. Best to do all you can not to get spun sideways. This can mean giving up the desired heading (if it’s not quite straight upwind) for a more head on course or a taking zig-zag approach of alternately attacking head/beam (neither really being optimal as on is slow and more stable, the other faster and more of a balance/control challenge) to get where you need to.

Makes Sense to Me

– Last Updated: Feb-13-08 1:48 PM EST –

Otterslide's comments so far ring true to me. I'm no kayaker, but I've experienced this same problem when out in high winds in my guide-boat (I try not to mess with such winds in a solo canoe, though weather changes being what they are, that day will come). Regarding the comment that with enough speed, it should be possible to rudder the boat into the wind, I'd apply Salty's comment about observation being a merciless critic of theory. In a "typical" strong wind, forward speed makes my guide-boat weathercock because that forward speed creates a condition of having less pressure on each side of the stern than there is at the bow. However, if the wind gets REALLY strong, the boat gets pushed sideways at a speed that pretty much eliminates the difference in resistance to sideways skidding at the bow versus the stern, so the boat just feels "locked" in that sideways orientation. Believe me, with eight-foot oars being horsed in opposite directions, the turning power of a rowboat such as this greatly exceeds that of a stern-mounted rudder, yet getting the boat aimed into a very strong wind can still be a real battle. In the winds described by the original poster, I rather doubt that I could successfully make such a turn at all.

you guys
are way beyond me in skill and strength,that one trip six years ago was an eyeopener. There weren’t any usable waves, just a mess of shallow chop and unrelenting wind. It was the oddest experience to focus on putting the blade in exactly the right place with my guts lined up for the effort and it was like a little motor magically pointed me were I needed to go. The moment I lost focus or tried brute strength corrections ZOOOOOOM I was flying sideways in the Express.

Not getting stronger since I tried out a Chatham16 glass boat and that did it. I like being able to point the boat where I want to go.

Another good one Karl.
Seems like threads are getting more informative and accurate these days…perhaps a by product of sharing information over time?



Turning to wind even in a highly playful coastal touring boat can be tough. Last year my friend and I tested a couple of very playful boats in surf at Jordan River. Winds were gusting 50+ with trees falling…major storm.



We surfed a bit and had fun in blowing sleet, but neither of us could turn up wind without aggressive reverse sweeps prior to strong edging and forward sweeps. He is an former Olympic slalom coach, and designer, so skill was not the problem. Because the kayaks were so playful, we were able to work with that and have some fun. I’d hate to think of being in a big 18ft. tracker in those conditions.

Less criticism

– Last Updated: Feb-13-08 2:57 PM EST –

Re about threads - I am not sure that they are getting hugely more informative, but overall there seems to be less of people jumping on what others say with both feet. That'll automatically improve the content.
(Later add - and the likelihood of more people wanting to get into the discussion)

Perhaps, but also
some really experienced people posting technically accurate information.

Nice one GH … LOL


RE-read the post and you’ll see why I was not using the skeg.



Actually I have never paddled in conditions before where I HAD to use the skeg…generally is just an optional aid.



Weathercocking generally means turning into the wind, and yes I know exactly why a boat does that. Turning sideways to the wind is not something that I have experienced except in super high winds and did not quite make sense to me.



You probably need to re-read the post.



Matt

You knuckle-draggin’ animal!!!
You are one gutsy SOB Matt!!! I am too scared to even venture out into that kind of wind/waves much less alone!! The water is most likely colder up here in NE (34 degrees) but still think you must eat nails for breakfast and go fishing for great whites by slapping the water with your hand.



You be ‘way out there’ compared to me!! (but then, I am pretty timid)



:wink:



Scott

Call me nuts, but
When the wind whips up on Puget Sound, there are a few of us crazies who want to rush out and practice in it! However choose our location, gear and buddies carefully. This weekend we paddled to Alki Point, at the light house to face the 20 miles of fetch the South wind was throwing at the point. If you did not understand any of the wise words from Karl, this type of wind practice will acclimate you to what he was trying to tell you, and your brain will communicate in ways that you will understand. People learn in different ways, spoken words, book words, visually and or kinetically. You will figure out what works and what does not work so well in trying to navigate in high winds. It may help you get home safely some day. But be safe… in our situation, we had a point to hide behind. In other cases, we select a place where the wind will blow you onto the beach.

Karl, I was hoping someone would
reference that incident. I hate rubbing the puppy’s nose in the rug myself, but it was revealing and instructional. Recently one of their peers died doing a similar run in the same area.



Dogmaticus

If you are a rudder paddler raising it
to your rear deck may create enough surface area to assist in turning to. That is not an option with underhull rudders.



Another thing I’ve yet to see is posture and loading. Posture forward weights the bow and allows the stern to slip. If your day hatch or back hatch is filled with stuff you might be imbalancing for a more weighted rear and a down wind run. A “more experienced friend” may bump the stern in a position able to take advantage of turning to, but inform the paddler as I might be doing something completely different and some idiot is preventing me from that. Finally, I love draw strokes, stern and bow, to trim myself or turn about.



Dogmaticus

Low decked or heavily loaded boats…
If Matt’s Explorer had been heavily loaded and trimmed fore and aft correctly, (or had been an LV or just low decked boat) This would make the boat easier to handle in wind, right?

Reread it

– Last Updated: Feb-13-08 10:40 PM EST –

yep, my brain read trying to go with the wind, not upwind, hence my comments. Maybe you found the limitations of the boats abilities in high wind? I'd suspect those neutral handling characteristics you mention go 'out the door' in those wind speeds. I once had my kayak literally spin around heading into steady 15-30mph cresting a wave and having a stronger gust hit. Very cool. In winds you encountered (clocked or gut?) it wouldn't take much for a yak to get blown sideways to the wind, and be a fight to get back upwind again once it was. Also curious why you felt the need to remove your hands from your pogies to deploy the skeg as a couple friends who wear pogies have no issues deploying their skegs with their hands in their pogies. I might also state that no boat I've ever paddled naturaly turns into the wind as you state yours might. Virtually every boat I've ever been in, be it a canoe or kayak, WANTS to go sideways to the wind IF I'm not paddling, and with skeg/rudder up. You would most likely be bow heavy for a stationary hull to wanna turn into the wind. Even if paddling into winds any neutraly balanced hull would eventually go sideways to the wind without some sort of concious/subconcious effort, be it edging, ruddering or stronger stroke to one side.

Not necessarily

– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 1:45 AM EST –

The 4* assessment is an attempt to objectively define what skills are necessary to possess to be an intermediate skill level.
The remit of the 4* is Force 4. The winds bowler felt he was out in, 40-45kn, would be Force 9.

The 4* assessment is not always easy to pass, but it is very reasonable. Force 4 isn't really that much, but the level of skill demonstrated by the 4* paddler must be very high. The test is not about gnarl factor, it is about ownership of skills in reasonable sea conditions.
Take those skills into Force 5, and nothing really changes except the judgement to be there, and acceptance of risk. But everything changes dramatically at Forc 6.
Force 4 is 11-16kn. At twice the wind speed, the actual forces on the boat go eightfold. That's right, it becomes exponential, not linear. That happens somewhere about Force 6 and 7(6 is 22-27, 7 is 28-33).

The behavior of a boat changes quite a bit at that point. Some of the design features that can balance out a boat at reasonable wind speeds (Force 3-5), can start to play havoc; the skill set of the paddler also needs to change. Much of what works at Force 3-5, the domain of the 4* paddler, may no longer be working.

I would suggest that the knowledge bowler possesses as a 4* paddler do not infer skill or awareness of what happened, but it does give him appreciation and ability apply the feedback from taking his intermediate skills into an advanced environment.

I would say, well done.

karl

“I would say, well done.”

– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 1:39 AM EST –

Coming from Karl this has weight.

Thank you Karl for succinctly noting the nature of a 4*.

Backing up to go forward
In one of my responses in this thread, plus another Celia referred to, there was brought up the technique of backing up to turn a boat upwind.



I think it needs elaboration.

I made the comment that, if a paddler is using this technique, the wind could not really be considered “high wind”.



Here is the background.

It is true, valid, and usefull to understand when and why a kayak can turn more readily when backing up. And also, the limitation. The great majority of sea kayaks are not symmetrical in their lengthwise underwater profile. In designing for the goal of tracking, most have more rocker forwards, and some form of hull design aft to enhance tracking- a stiffer stern, if you willl (note- a stiff bow is not a good tracking feature!).

At this point, it may be useful to do an experiment with your boat before you read on. Put some weight of significance in your bow compartment, then try to paddle in a straight line with that slightly deeper bow. Hard, huh? Now, back up and try to go straight (usually difficult for many). Easier, right?



Thus it is with a trimmed sea kayak. Backing up, once a turn has started, the quality of the turn is more dramatic than it is when going forward.



Some kayaks (Nordkapp HM, the old Eddyline Falcons) with permanent skeg sterns were found to be very hard to turn around. Back them up and initiate a turn, and they turn wildly!

So yes, going backwards can be a valid way to turn upwind.

But only in moderate wind. If one thinks that this is “the way” to turn upwind in high wind, they will absolutley be shocked,and scared silly when they try it in truly high winds. The simple initiation of the reverse sweep will act as an anchor, and the boat will pivot strongly downwind off the paddle. Remember that the force from wind goes eightfold when the wind speed doubles- pushing hard into the wind off the stern, even though you are thinking you are just pushing the stern farther downwind, you are also trying to spin the forward part upwind. Even if your name is Arnold, no one has the strength to do this at a certain wind speed. I guarantee you, the first thing you feel is fear when you push as hard as you can, and the boat does the opposite of what your goal was!



Anybody out there reading this own a Pintail, or the old drop skeg Elaho? Paddled it in very high winds? Noticed that it may have been less problem than your friends were having when turning upwind?

Love it when Otterslide talks theory
"Observation is a merciless critic of theory." - Very true Salty, but it is a thing of beauty when well thought out theory is used to explain careful observation.



The only thing I can contribute from my limited experience is that you may have to make modifications when you are pointed at a hard place. I was in a sudden squall - no waves; pure wind and foolishly got myself sideways and pointed at a cliff. By the time I figured out to paddle backwards to turn downwind and then hard forward to U-turn upwind to the open side, I’d blown a long way. Also learned some stuff about packing a kayak for trim.



Listen to Karl; the only thing better would be to have this discussion over a flask of Scotch.

great questions
are leading to excellent discussions.



Lyn

High winds

– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 3:45 PM EST –

That 30 plus mile per hour stuff, for sure the higher gusts we measured on shore, was the heftiest I'd been in so far where I was well offshore. Maybe since then, certainly there haven't been a lot of such days. It was also the highest wind condition in which I've had the pleasure of making so many new discoveries, like that the deck of a Vela is a lousy rescue platform for an over 6 ft tall person.

I have messed around in what the weather did later report as 47-50 closer in to shore and had the chance to learn two probably useless things. One is that rolling up against that level of wind is a real pain, and the other is that doing a balance brace on the favorable side is really really easy. (as long as you come back up again before you get blown into a dock)

Seriously though - I think that Otterslide's comment about what constitutes truly high winds goes to a critical part of this. What Matt reported out as wind speeds is going to be a problem for even fairly experienced paddlers. And it does happen - that high wind day (I think 50 qualifies) I mention above was the only day we've experienced like that in many years of visiting Muscongous in July. There was a gathering the same day at Popham of some very experienced paddlers from the Boston area, and word we got later from a participant was that the capsize rate was running awfully high for this bunch.

And before someone says anything about weather reports, it was a shining moment for NOAA. They had changed their programming and every NOAA station south of Ellesworth had sudddenly found their marine forecasts weren't broadcasting. So anticipating things wasn't the easiest.