…
RE-read the post and you’ll see why I was not using the skeg.
Actually I have never paddled in conditions before where I HAD to use the skeg…generally is just an optional aid.
Weathercocking generally means turning into the wind, and yes I know exactly why a boat does that. Turning sideways to the wind is not something that I have experienced except in super high winds and did not quite make sense to me.
You probably need to re-read the post.
Matt
You knuckle-draggin’ animal!!!
You are one gutsy SOB Matt!!! I am too scared to even venture out into that kind of wind/waves much less alone!! The water is most likely colder up here in NE (34 degrees) but still think you must eat nails for breakfast and go fishing for great whites by slapping the water with your hand.
You be ‘way out there’ compared to me!! (but then, I am pretty timid)
Scott
Call me nuts, but
When the wind whips up on Puget Sound, there are a few of us crazies who want to rush out and practice in it! However choose our location, gear and buddies carefully. This weekend we paddled to Alki Point, at the light house to face the 20 miles of fetch the South wind was throwing at the point. If you did not understand any of the wise words from Karl, this type of wind practice will acclimate you to what he was trying to tell you, and your brain will communicate in ways that you will understand. People learn in different ways, spoken words, book words, visually and or kinetically. You will figure out what works and what does not work so well in trying to navigate in high winds. It may help you get home safely some day. But be safe… in our situation, we had a point to hide behind. In other cases, we select a place where the wind will blow you onto the beach.
Karl, I was hoping someone would
reference that incident. I hate rubbing the puppy’s nose in the rug myself, but it was revealing and instructional. Recently one of their peers died doing a similar run in the same area.
Dogmaticus
If you are a rudder paddler raising it
to your rear deck may create enough surface area to assist in turning to. That is not an option with underhull rudders.
Another thing I’ve yet to see is posture and loading. Posture forward weights the bow and allows the stern to slip. If your day hatch or back hatch is filled with stuff you might be imbalancing for a more weighted rear and a down wind run. A “more experienced friend” may bump the stern in a position able to take advantage of turning to, but inform the paddler as I might be doing something completely different and some idiot is preventing me from that. Finally, I love draw strokes, stern and bow, to trim myself or turn about.
Dogmaticus
Low decked or heavily loaded boats…
If Matt’s Explorer had been heavily loaded and trimmed fore and aft correctly, (or had been an LV or just low decked boat) This would make the boat easier to handle in wind, right?
Reread it
– Last Updated: Feb-13-08 10:40 PM EST –
yep, my brain read trying to go with the wind, not upwind, hence my comments. Maybe you found the limitations of the boats abilities in high wind? I'd suspect those neutral handling characteristics you mention go 'out the door' in those wind speeds. I once had my kayak literally spin around heading into steady 15-30mph cresting a wave and having a stronger gust hit. Very cool. In winds you encountered (clocked or gut?) it wouldn't take much for a yak to get blown sideways to the wind, and be a fight to get back upwind again once it was. Also curious why you felt the need to remove your hands from your pogies to deploy the skeg as a couple friends who wear pogies have no issues deploying their skegs with their hands in their pogies. I might also state that no boat I've ever paddled naturaly turns into the wind as you state yours might. Virtually every boat I've ever been in, be it a canoe or kayak, WANTS to go sideways to the wind IF I'm not paddling, and with skeg/rudder up. You would most likely be bow heavy for a stationary hull to wanna turn into the wind. Even if paddling into winds any neutraly balanced hull would eventually go sideways to the wind without some sort of concious/subconcious effort, be it edging, ruddering or stronger stroke to one side.
Not necessarily
– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 1:45 AM EST –
The 4* assessment is an attempt to objectively define what skills are necessary to possess to be an intermediate skill level.
The remit of the 4* is Force 4. The winds bowler felt he was out in, 40-45kn, would be Force 9.
The 4* assessment is not always easy to pass, but it is very reasonable. Force 4 isn't really that much, but the level of skill demonstrated by the 4* paddler must be very high. The test is not about gnarl factor, it is about ownership of skills in reasonable sea conditions.
Take those skills into Force 5, and nothing really changes except the judgement to be there, and acceptance of risk. But everything changes dramatically at Forc 6.
Force 4 is 11-16kn. At twice the wind speed, the actual forces on the boat go eightfold. That's right, it becomes exponential, not linear. That happens somewhere about Force 6 and 7(6 is 22-27, 7 is 28-33).
The behavior of a boat changes quite a bit at that point. Some of the design features that can balance out a boat at reasonable wind speeds (Force 3-5), can start to play havoc; the skill set of the paddler also needs to change. Much of what works at Force 3-5, the domain of the 4* paddler, may no longer be working.
I would suggest that the knowledge bowler possesses as a 4* paddler do not infer skill or awareness of what happened, but it does give him appreciation and ability apply the feedback from taking his intermediate skills into an advanced environment.
I would say, well done.
karl
“I would say, well done.”
– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 1:39 AM EST –
Coming from Karl this has weight.
Thank you Karl for succinctly noting the nature of a 4*.
Backing up to go forward
In one of my responses in this thread, plus another Celia referred to, there was brought up the technique of backing up to turn a boat upwind.
I think it needs elaboration.
I made the comment that, if a paddler is using this technique, the wind could not really be considered “high wind”.
Here is the background.
It is true, valid, and usefull to understand when and why a kayak can turn more readily when backing up. And also, the limitation. The great majority of sea kayaks are not symmetrical in their lengthwise underwater profile. In designing for the goal of tracking, most have more rocker forwards, and some form of hull design aft to enhance tracking- a stiffer stern, if you willl (note- a stiff bow is not a good tracking feature!).
At this point, it may be useful to do an experiment with your boat before you read on. Put some weight of significance in your bow compartment, then try to paddle in a straight line with that slightly deeper bow. Hard, huh? Now, back up and try to go straight (usually difficult for many). Easier, right?
Thus it is with a trimmed sea kayak. Backing up, once a turn has started, the quality of the turn is more dramatic than it is when going forward.
Some kayaks (Nordkapp HM, the old Eddyline Falcons) with permanent skeg sterns were found to be very hard to turn around. Back them up and initiate a turn, and they turn wildly!
So yes, going backwards can be a valid way to turn upwind.
But only in moderate wind. If one thinks that this is “the way” to turn upwind in high wind, they will absolutley be shocked,and scared silly when they try it in truly high winds. The simple initiation of the reverse sweep will act as an anchor, and the boat will pivot strongly downwind off the paddle. Remember that the force from wind goes eightfold when the wind speed doubles- pushing hard into the wind off the stern, even though you are thinking you are just pushing the stern farther downwind, you are also trying to spin the forward part upwind. Even if your name is Arnold, no one has the strength to do this at a certain wind speed. I guarantee you, the first thing you feel is fear when you push as hard as you can, and the boat does the opposite of what your goal was!
Anybody out there reading this own a Pintail, or the old drop skeg Elaho? Paddled it in very high winds? Noticed that it may have been less problem than your friends were having when turning upwind?
Love it when Otterslide talks theory
"Observation is a merciless critic of theory." - Very true Salty, but it is a thing of beauty when well thought out theory is used to explain careful observation.
The only thing I can contribute from my limited experience is that you may have to make modifications when you are pointed at a hard place. I was in a sudden squall - no waves; pure wind and foolishly got myself sideways and pointed at a cliff. By the time I figured out to paddle backwards to turn downwind and then hard forward to U-turn upwind to the open side, I’d blown a long way. Also learned some stuff about packing a kayak for trim.
Listen to Karl; the only thing better would be to have this discussion over a flask of Scotch.
great questions
are leading to excellent discussions.
Lyn
High winds
– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 3:45 PM EST –
That 30 plus mile per hour stuff, for sure the higher gusts we measured on shore, was the heftiest I'd been in so far where I was well offshore. Maybe since then, certainly there haven't been a lot of such days. It was also the highest wind condition in which I've had the pleasure of making so many new discoveries, like that the deck of a Vela is a lousy rescue platform for an over 6 ft tall person.
I have messed around in what the weather did later report as 47-50 closer in to shore and had the chance to learn two probably useless things. One is that rolling up against that level of wind is a real pain, and the other is that doing a balance brace on the favorable side is really really easy. (as long as you come back up again before you get blown into a dock)
Seriously though - I think that Otterslide's comment about what constitutes truly high winds goes to a critical part of this. What Matt reported out as wind speeds is going to be a problem for even fairly experienced paddlers. And it does happen - that high wind day (I think 50 qualifies) I mention above was the only day we've experienced like that in many years of visiting Muscongous in July. There was a gathering the same day at Popham of some very experienced paddlers from the Boston area, and word we got later from a participant was that the capsize rate was running awfully high for this bunch.
And before someone says anything about weather reports, it was a shining moment for NOAA. They had changed their programming and every NOAA station south of Ellesworth had sudddenly found their marine forecasts weren't broadcasting. So anticipating things wasn't the easiest.
Praxis
Theory in practice.
Gosh, I wish I was on the water with Karl in winds really benefitting from this!
Elaho DS
– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 7:21 PM EST –
Yup, turns up wind real easy. Turning down wind is another issue.
It was my first sea kayak and still have it. A very fun boat which spoiled me for other sea kayaks with its whitewater outfitting (agressive thigh hooks and Bomber backband), low decks and playfulness.
It rolls and balance braces even easier than my Romany!
I think everyone commenting on this
thread should own an anemometer and keep it in their PFD pocket. You would be very surprised what the meter says versus your observations.
Dogmaticus
Everyone of Us?
– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 12:45 PM EST –
A quick perusal of the thread revealed just a handful of posts that even mentioned wind speeds in any numerical terms, and unless I missed something, all but one of those posters mentioned wind speed as part of a statment suggesting that the original poster was over-estimating the wind he was out in. I'd guess that 95 percent of the posters here never mentioned wind speed at all, except perhaps to say how "strong wind" affects their paddling.
Personally, I would really like to take a portable anemometer out in the boat with me on days when the wind is almost too strong to deal with. It's an awfully expensive toy for simply satisfying my curiosity, though, so I doubt I'll ever do it.
Backing up to turn
With the technique I was describing, the back paddling was just to get speed to really hang on a forward high brace. I acknowledge there will be no turning resulting from the backpaddling or reverse sweeping, but you can really crank around the bow around upwind that way. I did not experience the grabbing and bow pivoting downwind with the reverse sweep. Whether this was from putting the back sweep in on a very active outward motion, or the wind was just not high enough, will have to wait for me to find out (just me, I like experiential learning, I am not trying to assert it will not happen). I look for high winds to practice things in, and this worked in the highest winds I have found, but I do hope to find higher winds some day. With winds at that strength I would not be able to make any forward progress, so it would be a bit hard to test. At least with this excellent heads up, I may not be so “scared silly” at previously unexpected results.
Peter
Carrying an anemometer
– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 1:58 PM EST –
My default response to these is unenthusiastic. I hate measuring devices when I am doing something enjoyable. But it is a good thing to be able to relate measured wind speeds to actual paddling experience to be able to better plan trips and anticipate risks. The best way to do that is to carry an anomometer and check it regularly.
The day that we had the 50 mph stuff (by midday) in Maine started out with three of us paddling out to explore the next cove over. I was the one who nixed the full trip because I was sufficiently beat partway there that I really doubted the margin I would have to handle problems by the time we'd have been coming home. As in my first post, the speeds I quoted were measured via anomemeter and/or historical weather readings. It is likely that the wind speeds were lower when we were back into the partial shelter of our cove and I decided to see what effect it all would have on things like my roll.
But I still hate measuring devices.
If you’ve spent many
years on the water in a variety of vessels you get pretty good at estimating wind speed. I agree that most over-estimate.