“I would say, well done.”
– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 1:39 AM EST –
Coming from Karl this has weight.
Thank you Karl for succinctly noting the nature of a 4*.
Backing up to go forward
In one of my responses in this thread, plus another Celia referred to, there was brought up the technique of backing up to turn a boat upwind.
I think it needs elaboration.
I made the comment that, if a paddler is using this technique, the wind could not really be considered “high wind”.
Here is the background.
It is true, valid, and usefull to understand when and why a kayak can turn more readily when backing up. And also, the limitation. The great majority of sea kayaks are not symmetrical in their lengthwise underwater profile. In designing for the goal of tracking, most have more rocker forwards, and some form of hull design aft to enhance tracking- a stiffer stern, if you willl (note- a stiff bow is not a good tracking feature!).
At this point, it may be useful to do an experiment with your boat before you read on. Put some weight of significance in your bow compartment, then try to paddle in a straight line with that slightly deeper bow. Hard, huh? Now, back up and try to go straight (usually difficult for many). Easier, right?
Thus it is with a trimmed sea kayak. Backing up, once a turn has started, the quality of the turn is more dramatic than it is when going forward.
Some kayaks (Nordkapp HM, the old Eddyline Falcons) with permanent skeg sterns were found to be very hard to turn around. Back them up and initiate a turn, and they turn wildly!
So yes, going backwards can be a valid way to turn upwind.
But only in moderate wind. If one thinks that this is “the way” to turn upwind in high wind, they will absolutley be shocked,and scared silly when they try it in truly high winds. The simple initiation of the reverse sweep will act as an anchor, and the boat will pivot strongly downwind off the paddle. Remember that the force from wind goes eightfold when the wind speed doubles- pushing hard into the wind off the stern, even though you are thinking you are just pushing the stern farther downwind, you are also trying to spin the forward part upwind. Even if your name is Arnold, no one has the strength to do this at a certain wind speed. I guarantee you, the first thing you feel is fear when you push as hard as you can, and the boat does the opposite of what your goal was!
Anybody out there reading this own a Pintail, or the old drop skeg Elaho? Paddled it in very high winds? Noticed that it may have been less problem than your friends were having when turning upwind?
Love it when Otterslide talks theory
"Observation is a merciless critic of theory." - Very true Salty, but it is a thing of beauty when well thought out theory is used to explain careful observation.
The only thing I can contribute from my limited experience is that you may have to make modifications when you are pointed at a hard place. I was in a sudden squall - no waves; pure wind and foolishly got myself sideways and pointed at a cliff. By the time I figured out to paddle backwards to turn downwind and then hard forward to U-turn upwind to the open side, I’d blown a long way. Also learned some stuff about packing a kayak for trim.
Listen to Karl; the only thing better would be to have this discussion over a flask of Scotch.
great questions
are leading to excellent discussions.
Lyn
High winds
– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 3:45 PM EST –
That 30 plus mile per hour stuff, for sure the higher gusts we measured on shore, was the heftiest I'd been in so far where I was well offshore. Maybe since then, certainly there haven't been a lot of such days. It was also the highest wind condition in which I've had the pleasure of making so many new discoveries, like that the deck of a Vela is a lousy rescue platform for an over 6 ft tall person.
I have messed around in what the weather did later report as 47-50 closer in to shore and had the chance to learn two probably useless things. One is that rolling up against that level of wind is a real pain, and the other is that doing a balance brace on the favorable side is really really easy. (as long as you come back up again before you get blown into a dock)
Seriously though - I think that Otterslide's comment about what constitutes truly high winds goes to a critical part of this. What Matt reported out as wind speeds is going to be a problem for even fairly experienced paddlers. And it does happen - that high wind day (I think 50 qualifies) I mention above was the only day we've experienced like that in many years of visiting Muscongous in July. There was a gathering the same day at Popham of some very experienced paddlers from the Boston area, and word we got later from a participant was that the capsize rate was running awfully high for this bunch.
And before someone says anything about weather reports, it was a shining moment for NOAA. They had changed their programming and every NOAA station south of Ellesworth had sudddenly found their marine forecasts weren't broadcasting. So anticipating things wasn't the easiest.
Praxis
Theory in practice.
Gosh, I wish I was on the water with Karl in winds really benefitting from this!
Elaho DS
– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 7:21 PM EST –
Yup, turns up wind real easy. Turning down wind is another issue.
It was my first sea kayak and still have it. A very fun boat which spoiled me for other sea kayaks with its whitewater outfitting (agressive thigh hooks and Bomber backband), low decks and playfulness.
It rolls and balance braces even easier than my Romany!
I think everyone commenting on this
thread should own an anemometer and keep it in their PFD pocket. You would be very surprised what the meter says versus your observations.
Dogmaticus
Everyone of Us?
– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 12:45 PM EST –
A quick perusal of the thread revealed just a handful of posts that even mentioned wind speeds in any numerical terms, and unless I missed something, all but one of those posters mentioned wind speed as part of a statment suggesting that the original poster was over-estimating the wind he was out in. I'd guess that 95 percent of the posters here never mentioned wind speed at all, except perhaps to say how "strong wind" affects their paddling.
Personally, I would really like to take a portable anemometer out in the boat with me on days when the wind is almost too strong to deal with. It's an awfully expensive toy for simply satisfying my curiosity, though, so I doubt I'll ever do it.
Backing up to turn
With the technique I was describing, the back paddling was just to get speed to really hang on a forward high brace. I acknowledge there will be no turning resulting from the backpaddling or reverse sweeping, but you can really crank around the bow around upwind that way. I did not experience the grabbing and bow pivoting downwind with the reverse sweep. Whether this was from putting the back sweep in on a very active outward motion, or the wind was just not high enough, will have to wait for me to find out (just me, I like experiential learning, I am not trying to assert it will not happen). I look for high winds to practice things in, and this worked in the highest winds I have found, but I do hope to find higher winds some day. With winds at that strength I would not be able to make any forward progress, so it would be a bit hard to test. At least with this excellent heads up, I may not be so “scared silly” at previously unexpected results.
Peter
Carrying an anemometer
– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 1:58 PM EST –
My default response to these is unenthusiastic. I hate measuring devices when I am doing something enjoyable. But it is a good thing to be able to relate measured wind speeds to actual paddling experience to be able to better plan trips and anticipate risks. The best way to do that is to carry an anomometer and check it regularly.
The day that we had the 50 mph stuff (by midday) in Maine started out with three of us paddling out to explore the next cove over. I was the one who nixed the full trip because I was sufficiently beat partway there that I really doubted the margin I would have to handle problems by the time we'd have been coming home. As in my first post, the speeds I quoted were measured via anomemeter and/or historical weather readings. It is likely that the wind speeds were lower when we were back into the partial shelter of our cove and I decided to see what effect it all would have on things like my roll.
But I still hate measuring devices.
If you’ve spent many
years on the water in a variety of vessels you get pretty good at estimating wind speed. I agree that most over-estimate.
That there is funny…
But ya know, I think it’s right! The Nordy LV would be great.
anemometers are notoriously inaccurate
At least ordinary ones that don’t require a mortgage are. I know from when I used to wind surf and knowing the wind speed was important in choosing what size sail to use. I bought several and was impressed with how different the readings were from different instruments.
Alternatives?
– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 4:32 PM EST –
Is there an alternative for accuracy other than the expenditure of more green?
So I suppose that the readings from the buoys and weather stations (also checked in this case) were probably the most reliable. Problem is, even with a weather radio these results often seem to be the most reliable the day after when everything has been reviewed and posted. Not so much good when you're in it.
Boats designed for rudders, or not
I agree that most traditional sea kayaks are designed to be relatively balanced without a skeg or rudder. These are not the boats I aspire to paddle, but obvioulsy they are for many sea kayakers. The good news is that most rudders and skegs may be removed from the water when poking around rock gardens or more maneuverability is needed at slow speeds.
My experience is with kayaks that ARE designed for use with a rudder or skeg. My comments are based on this experience where a rudder is not an afterthought, but rather and integral part of a hulls design.
When I was a newbie, the opinions of many here shamed me into unbolting my rudder and storing it in the garage. Without a rudder, my kayak was a weathercocking machine. Somehow I managed to keep this boat going straight fairly well. Despite being out of lateral balance this boat was still faster than the tarditional looking sea kayaks I often passd.
A few wasted years later, I put the rudder back on the boat. My average speed doubled and my range tripled. I had more fun, more stabilty and could now link up surfing runs. However, when I needed to turn into the wind quickly or even when I was just bobbing around, I would flip up the rudder, just like I assume most do with their skegs.
I understand the hydrodynamics of hulls and rudders to a fairly high degree. I have extensive seat-of-the-pants experience in the QCC700 with the three differnt cockpit locations they have offered over the years. I’ve tried these various set ups with and without rudders. I have even swapped out rudder blades to judge the effect of different blades. I suspect I am in a very small minority of paddlers who has analysed rudder use to such a degree and then made the changes necessary to get better performance. Probably more importantly, I have a lifetime at the helm of racing sailboats. I continue to learn about the characteristics of rudder shapes on my surfski. I already have three different rudders for this boat that I’ve only paddled for a few months now.
Really efficient performance begins to happen when a kayak is designed with the CG forward of the LCB (bow down trim) and the lateral forces balance (weathercockings) are balanced by a foil shaped rudder. If the rudder area is tuned just right, you can make the kayak almost lift to windward. At my typical cruising speeds this meant I had to cut about 3/4" of meat off the bottom of the Feathercraft rudder that came on my origuinal QCC700. Once tuned properly, like a well designed sailboat, I cruised in a sidebreeze with a degree or two of positive rudder angle. This meant the rudder was balancing weathercocking forces by generating lift to windward. Once I had this dialed in, this boat resisted sideslipping incredibly well, tracked like on rails, yet was also very responsive to rudder inputs. This is very cool stuff that racing sailboats experience all the time, but rarely experienced or even considered on kayaks.
I wish the seat of my surfski was located about 6" forward. It would be a better boat if the bow grabbed a little more water so there would be just a touch of weather helm when I used an 8" weedless rudder that this boat loves. I am seeing surfski designers begin to ooch their seats more forward.
I don’t remember what the point of this discussion is. Before the haters jump on me more than they already have I need to say this:
IMPROVED SPEED, EFFICIENCY, RANGE, SURFABILITY THAT A RUDDER CAN OFFER ARE NOT NECESSARILY GOALS THAT EVERY PADDLER THINKS JUSTIFIES THE USE OF SUCH APPENDAGES. IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF EACH PADDLER TO DECIDE WHICH EQUIPMENT IS BEST SUITED FOR THEIR PADDLING GOALS.
I use a Kestrel, not sure the model,
maybe 3500 or 2500. It’s readings seems to be consistent with buoy reports and other sites. Not cheap, but a nice gadget.
Dogmaticus
the Beaufort scale
I did some Googling
and found many of my old friends. Assuming you want a hand held unit your choices for a reasonably accurate reading are a propeller of some kind connected to a recorder/display or a hot wire anemometer. The problem with hand held propeller units is that they have to be turned to the wind accurately. I could not find one that also had a vane to control for wind direction. I did find a hot wire model for $160. That is remarkably cheap but I have no idea how well it works. You would normally expect to pay $400 or more. A more difficult problem in measurement from a kayak is that near the surface of the water wind speed varies a lot with distance from the surface. I don’t know if there is a general principle about that. But I do know you can raise and lower the anemometer and get different readings.
Aiming the Unit
– Last Updated: Feb-14-08 6:36 PM EST –
Some good points there, Doc. I think that out on the water, aiming the unit would not be difficult, since you can just align it with the Langmuir Spirals (those long streaks of foam). There can be changes in wind direction, but out on the open water they are usually slight when the wind is strong, so the foam streaks (or just aim perpendicular to the waves) seems like it would work. In calmer conditions, I don't think I'd be interested in wind speed anyway, but that's just me. I must admit I'm tempted to get one of these toys someday.