So you can roll. Now what?

you can forward stroke… now what?
to me that is a parallel to what you are asking. You use it and practice it all the time in all conditions.



I started on flatwater, then swell, then a loaded sea kayak (super easy), then chop, them surf, then whatever came along.



Once I learned to roll I practiced all the time - in all conditions. I started surfing and for a long time I would let every 4th or 5th wave capsize me so I could roll up. Or, I would just paddle out and let a wave knock me over.





Islander - “The ocean and salt water will take more technique to stick it on the first try.” The difference between flatwater and roughwater is mainly in the head. The technique is to know you can do it and to NOT do anything differently.

yeah
but the trouble is you rarely capsize in flat water:)

Eh?

– Last Updated: Jul-18-08 11:30 PM EST –

"The difference between flatwater and roughwater is mainly in the head. The technique is to know you can do it and to NOT do anything differently."

The difference between flat water and rough water are the waves. Several posters illustrated this point clearly. If you plan to pretend like the waves are just in your head the roll may not be effective.

You also can't open your eyes the same as fresh water.

I was just responding the original posters question.

I didn't say it was impossible, just more challenging.

Edit: sorry, PaddleMore, but your post confused me. You said you started out on flat water and gradually built up your skills, up to ocean conditions? Then you tell me that there is no difference between flat water and the ocean? It's all in my head?

You completely contradicted yourself there.

It takes a gradual process and some people may not ever fully appreciate the ocean.

Now that I can roll
I am trying to sing http://youtube.com/watch?v=wGQTVu6A7AY

Gum Tree Canoe
Can you learn Gum Tree Canoe …



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkVAK60lqzQ



we can do a duet next year at the Symposium.

Good advice
I got a similar tip when I started playing around with WW paddling about 10 years ago (And I still just dabble in it as a skill builder, tho I enjoy it): Count to three before you do anything, and get composed. Then make a decision and roll. Works great for me.



Also, learning all those different GP rolls helps immensely, too, because you realize that you’re never really far from a setup position if you’re calm (Or at least not totally freaked out the first few times you capsize for real).

…just $.01 from an OC-1 dummy

– Last Updated: Jul-19-08 9:56 AM EST –

As to doing an "offside" roll, remember when passing objects...whether it be rocks, or anything...on one's offside(as many people occasionally do...leaving their onsides free to the open waters), if you flip in those close quarters...there'll often be no room for an onside roll. Without pushing off from the object, thus giving yourself space...you easiest choice is an offside roll.
So if your offside roll is "off", practice relaxing, then pushing off the object..or even sculling the hull around a bit(if needed), then wind up to roll...etc.

OC-1_dummy's $.01....

Slightly off topic…
My favorite places to kayak are the more sheltered rivers and creeks. I see plenty of SOT out there that have nice range. So even if you can’t roll in challenging conditions doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy the coastal areas. You can also find a safe place to hone your skills.

sorry… 2 seperate things
I described how I learned and progressed. BUT, I didn’t need to go through all those steps. When I was going through the progression I very rarely missed rolls. It wasn’t because I practiced a lot and built up my skill at each stage - it was because I was comfortable rolling a kayak. In fact, I actually think I rolled my kayak in the surf (a few times) before I did all of the other stuff. But, I went through the progress because I thought it was necessary - it wasn’t.



Once you can roll comfortably in flatwater there is no difference in technique. The waves aren’t as big of a factor as people make them out to be - mostly they are a non-factor.



People psyche themselves out of a roll because they expect there to be huge difference. When that happens they try to get their head out of the water, rather than trying to roll.



You will want to progress your skill on flatwater so that you do not need to open your eyes - roll by feel not by sight.

if your offside is ‘off’ then you
stop thinking in terms of offside and onside. You work on both sides until you have 2 on-sides. Problem solved.

ok, sounds reasonaable
I think what you are saying is that is someone develops a bomb proof roll on a lake then the adjustment to the ocean will be a lot easier.



That happens to be the same approach I’m taking, so thanks for clearing that up.



I could have gone to the beach today, but instead went back to the county park and practiced rolling.



I know that sounds like common sense that someone wouldn’t just head out into the ocean their first time here, but people do exactly that and get in trouble.












yep

– Last Updated: Jul-20-08 9:26 AM EST –

I know from experience that there is a strong pull to practice the rolls I know, but the key to rolling in conditions is to practice (1) my weaker rolls and 2) moving from out of setup to rolling up on either side, e.g. to end disorientation. Rolling is easy: getting oriented takes time, and the less time taken the easier it is not to have to rush a roll.

SOT recovery is also…
… a bit of a different deal in textured water.



If you plastic SOT drivers have ever had a wave pick your kayak up and drop it on your head in he middle of trying to remount you know what I mean.



Way too many folks assume the flat water practice is enough with these - if they even do that. Some folk are natural water babies and hop on and off pretty much anytime/anywhere, but there’s also a lot of “I don’t need to do all that, I have an SOT” mentality out there.



Like rolling, you have to relax and work your timing with the waves. Long swell is easy, but try it somewhere with with steep reflecting waves (need not be very big, just close and disorganized - and or breaking) and it’s a different deal. Practicing in this (with onshore winds) gets very tiring very fast. Tired enough to really increase your risk level after just a few remount attempts. It will also usually result in changes to your outfitting and what gear you carry and how it’s stowed.

sot?
get a couple of thigh straps and roll it.



Paul

good point but


The point I was trying to make is that there are a lot of more sheltered rivers that would be like paddling a lake. Most people around here just do that instead of open water wide rivers or the ocean.


Good luck in surf
I’ve rolled a few SOTs. Only ones I’d do that with on purpose was a Tsunami X-1, and the Rrrapido. Both craft made for surf zone. The majority of SOT (as good as they are for what they’re designed for) are plastic barges that are more like paddlable rafts, and should be treated about same for recoveries. Rolling them is pretty much a flat watter trick, and if anyone can take that to sea, well that’s impressive. Thigh straps suck for rolling (better than nothing), and really SUCK for paddling any distance. I used mine on my Tarpon as shoulder carry straps.

“Most people”…

– Last Updated: Jul-19-08 9:12 PM EST –

... don't roll either, even though most who do consider it a beginner/basic skill that opens the door to other things.

Not really a big deal.
I get thrown of my Cobra Strike all the time in rough water, there is a spot where we like to play with reflected waves from heavy surf. Just climb back on. I know lot of people can’t do it, but that has more to do with fitness and lack of upper body exercise. Very few die paddling sit on tops so what does not kill them will make them better.

That’s true,
but my comments or suggestions were intended for the original poster who was asking about the difference between rolling on a lake and rolling at the coast.



My comments have been consistent with other people experience. It is more of a challenge on the coast.



I was suggesting starting in a more secluded river, because even that is more challenging than a lake. You have to factor in the tides, motor boats, oyster beds. Heck, you can cut your foot wide open at the boat landing. The tide may pull you into a bride piling.



When you get used to that move to a bigger river and it will be more challenging. I’ve noticed that 20 knot winds with quatering waves and tide take a lot of skill.



I wasn’t suggesting someone panic, not be confident when they are in rough conditions, etc. I also wasn’t suggesting not learning how to roll a kayak in this thread.



My point about the SOT folks who stay in a safe calm river is that they are having just as much fun as anyone else, especially some nit picker on the internet.






Strike is surf specific…
… more like a wave ski and meant to be rolled (with same techniques). Quite a bit less to toss around than larger SOTs. I’d put it in with the others I mentioned, and certainly not the barges.