The Sandpiper may be my best option,
even though it’s not exactly what I’m looking for. It’s .25" wider than the royalex Wildfire / Yellowstone Solo with 1" wider gunwales, so it wouldn’t be any better fit for me, has much less rocker, and it has a floppy bottom, but it does weigh 39 lbs or less and therefore may be a tolerable candidate for my intended use.
For the price, I wouldn’t be wincing and grimmacing every time I hit a rock, washing machine or laundry cart when paddling the Saline.
I am looking into the Sandpiper option.
Thanks.
short Bell
Leave Rose alone in CS - I’m sure she’s got enough to do this time of year without taking calls and emails from people for a model that just isn’t gonna happen.
Its simple; there’s not enough call for the shorter model than a Yellowstone solo in the general marketplace - not that you guys wouldn’t buy one, but that not enough will be sold in a few years to cover the costs of designing, building a plug and mold (especially a Royalex mold), getting the right sheets of rx made for the model, and maybe to cover the expense of a possible first 5 or 10 boats that aren’t going to be 1st quality. A new model with a limited run will be pretty expensive, and the general demand for it doesn’t justify the several seasons that a niche boat would be built at a loss.
Guys like Placid and Hornbeck pretty much cover any demand for the niche boats, and these aren’t potential kayak-crossover sales that they’re missing out on - the customer looking at a 12 or 13 foot Perception kayak (at $6-700) isn’t going to change their mind for a $1100+ canoe that will take them a little more practice than a rec kayak will.
The flashfire is a great boat - save your nickels; you’ll probably be able to afford to get one long before a group of p-netters will be able to convince any manufacturer to design and manufacture a new short solo canoe in Royalex that even comes close.
(And I’ll probably eat my words in 6 months.)
Someone else bought it TODAY!
Now I don’t have any affordable options for a light weight royalex canoe that’s close enough in size for me. That one was $579 brand new.
I went in today to put money down on it and they said it was sold today to a guy who said that a friend told them about it. For all I know, it may have been someone that I told about it. I should have put money down on it Thursday when I was in there testing it for size and measuring the max beam and gunwale width.
I’m dissapointed.
I won’t mention boats to anyone again if I have any interest at all in the boat and it’s one that’s nearly impossible to come by at a good price and in good condition.
That’s a lot of nickles for a $3000
Flashfire. I need something $1000 or less. The boat would encounter gravel bars, rocks, the occasional chunk of concrete and would probably be dropped a time or two, so it would have to be tough.
If someone has a used Flashfire in decent condition for under $1000, send me an email.
Bell already told me that there was very little chance of them making a smaller version of the Yellowstone Solo due to the expected lack of return on investment.
There currently are zero royalex options for smaller paddlers that don’t want to heft around boats that weight 45 lbs or more. Oh well, that’s life.
smaller name
So if the Rockstar is a bigger Yellowstone Solo, than a smaller version should be called the Teeny-Bopper.
I know someone who paddled a Bell Nexus until a hole was worn through the bottom; a serious paddler. Since the boat was garbage at that point, it was cut into three pieces, discarding the center section, and patched back together. Ugly boat that wasn’t much fun to paddle, but it does prove you can do serious modification to a Royalex boat.
I’d cut the freeboard down, add shorter thwarts near the seat, and add longer thwarts near the ends (total of four thwarts and a seat). That should pull more tumble home in the center, but add flair and rocker at the ends. Might not come out ahead in weight by much, but would be fun to paddle.
What a Scumbag move!
Whoever did that is a real freaking jerk.
Niche boats…
– Last Updated: Feb-28-09 8:56 PM EST –
I already have a Royalex Wildfire, and a Flashfire.
I was verbally daydreaming about a light weight, narrow beamed, 13 foot, Royalex canoe with a couple of inches of rocker.
Hornbeck & Placid fills the niche?
Refresh my memory; what Royalex 13 footers do they make?
I won't be calling Bell, and don't really care if Bell makes a new model or not.
I don't use a kayak paddle; not that there is anything wrong with using one.......
BOB
They may have heard about somewhere
else and didn’t know that they were snatching it out from under me. If they did know that I was after it and they rushed out to beat me to it, then they have to live with their decision.
Yanoer
I’ll let you have the Sandpiper for $650.00.
:^)
BOB
S-glass is impervious to UV. Resin
will be degraded. I’ve tried to find out whether vinylester (which Millbrook uses) stands up to UV better than epoxy. I haven’t gotten an answer.
Kaz of Millbrook uses a thin pigmented outer layer rather than gelcoat. He recommends using a wax with UV inhibitors on the hull so the outer layer does not suffer UV damage.
Our 17’ Bluewater tandem has a pigmented outer layer, probably epoxy. I have not done anything to it as I have driven it around the country, and I can’t see any UV damage yet. They probably use some kind of UV inhibitor.
Rocker Adjustment
Perhaps I should make a paper model before shooting from the hip about this, but I think conventional wisdom says that rocker is reduced (or made negative) by pinching-in the gunwales. At my current level of thinking, this makes sense to me because it would result in less curvature of the rails, meaning the boat would of necessity be longer, as measured at the top. The bottom would remain the same length, so the ends would tend to “push down”. I could be wrong though.
I won’t take it for less than $750.
neither
PBW or Hornbeck does Royalex.
The mold is expensive. I cant see it being developed without a real mass demand.
Its a shame. I would think there are many smaller paddlers who could use a Flash sized boat. Its not as much about your weight as your leg length when it comes to a solo canoe.
I guess we small paddlers need padding
in the bilge to get good knee contact on the wider boats. That won’t help with arm reach, though.
could be…
Yeah, I see what you’re saying. I was thinking of it as just a sheet, and focusing on the flat bottom part - much wider in the middle and tapering rapidly to the ends. Pushing the gunwales together would make the flat bottom bow out, and since there’s so much more material in the middle than at the ends, the middle should bow out more. However, since the ends are connected to each other, if you took off the bottom and pushed the gunwales together, I can see how that would cause the bottom point of the ends to become lower.
In any event, I suppose it’s going to be a deformed shape of some sort, so it’s hard to imagine that it would have better handling characteristics than in its original shape. Still, it’s an interesting idea. Angstrom in that thwart thread the other day said he had heard of hulls where you could change the rocker by varying thwart length.
I still have it out in my back yard, but unfortuantely it’s under 2 inches of snow right now and I’m too comfortably warm to go play with it now. I’ll give it a try next week, and try to measure the differences.
Talkers and Doers
Dave,
I told my brother-in-law about this boat. He was talking about buying an OT Pack and I told him that the Sandpiper would be a much better option.
I have known that Champaign Surplus had Sandpipers in stock for a few years. And I also knew they were down to one boat which I understood did not have a “sold” tag on it. I am happy that he pulled the trigger on it. This will be his solo, solo. He will paddle the crap out of it and not be perennially one boat or accessory away from contentment. For crissakes, paddle what you got.
Now, doubly, the jerk,
Lou
Good for him, Gremmie.
I’m glad that it went to someone who’ll use the crap out of it. I’ll find another option.
I know they don’t
Really, for any boat manufacturer these days going INTO royalex is a losing investment. Oven, vacuums, molds, mold tables, sheet bought in 100 quantities…You have to sell at least several thousands of boats a year in Royalex just to keep from selling at a loss.
A boat that small is only going to get so light in Royalex - at some point the weight curve flattens out, and you’re only going to save a pound or two. If the sheet is light enough, then you’re going to have wear issues, then.
And really, the whole purpose of my post was to say don’t harass Rose at Bell about new boats - she’s already got enough to do this time of year.
Fine then, make a composite version
with either S glass or E glass as an outer rather than kevlar or carbon so that the boat will have the best abrasion resitance and be easier to repair and make it for $1500 or less if royalex isn’t cost effective.
I just want a small, light canoe for mostly river work and sometimes for messing around on lakes. It needs to be able to handle bumps and grinds on rocks and gravel bars.
I’m not that picky, I just want a boat that fits well, handles well on small, shallow twisty streams, can handle bumps and grinds on rocks and gravel, can be paddled either sitting or kneeling with a single blade paddle and weighs less than 40 lbs, preferrably less than 35 lbs.
Offer me that in composite if a royalex version isn’t cost effective.
Regarding design, the Flashfire or a black gold 13’ version of the Yellowstone Solo would work, but I can’t swing $3k for river canoe and still have a cruiser for myself and any boat at all for my wife. A 13’ Yellowstone Solo Mini, would also be an adequate lake boat for me when I don’t need to cover too much distance too quickly and I don’t want the boat to spin when I stop paddling to get a drink of water or use the binoculars.
Give me a $1500 composite option and you’d have my attention.
In reality, I’m looking at a used Bell Flashfire in black gold with aluminum gunwales in order to get the weight, durability, price range and handling characteristics that I seek. One of Millbrook Boats models may also do the trick I’ll consult Kaz regarding the Millbrook options.
The Flashback is kind of an old design
and has more rocker than you might want. Kaz doesn’t show pictures or data on the Patriot, but it is a solo version of the AC/DC, a boat designed to compete in both slalom and downriver. I think the Patriot’s smaller dimensions will make it better for class 1-2 and downriver. It would not have the rocker needed for solo slalom. As I recall, it is 14’ 6" and about 28" wide, but don’t quote me on the width. If you email Kaz at Millbrook, he might be able to email pictures of the Patriot.
One reason I don’t see you going the Millbrook route is that (for obviously good reasons) you would like to see and try what you are buying. While Millbrook owners are always good about letting others try their boat, the Patriot has not been one of Millbrook’s big movers. But it would be good for the uses you have described.