Right on.
There is no question that “science” is socially and culturally affected. And all that is mixed in with economic motivations of the boat companies. Then add in the idiosyncratic experiences and biases of paddlers and you have a real morass. Good luck to anyone who wants to disentangle all of this.
Freya’s report of the race
around Australia could not be necessarily a very good verdict.
You are probably aware that she is sponsored by Epic.
Not saying that Freya could be a liar but I don’t think she would be stupid enough to bight the hand that feeds her, if you know what I mean.
Sponsored athletes endorsments have always been received by me with a grain of salt…
And while she is cranking incredible miles day after day and undoubtedly the kayak is helping her she is after all racing.
Her goal is speed. Epic boats are fast, but is speed the only reason to performance?
To put it in laymans terms: is a NASCAR car the ultimate vehicle or is a F1? how about a rally Subaru or a Hummer? … it all depends.
If speed and going straight is the only aspect of paddling for a kayaker than maybe Epic could be a good kayak. For the rest of the broad spectrum of kayaking maybe not.
Scottb, I am with you
the Epic could give me great bragging rights and allow me to smoke my paddling buddies with my average technique (actually on occasion I manage to do it in my SeaBird Designs kayak) but that is where the “fun” would stop.
Not sure if surfing short steep waves in an Epic would be something that I would be able to handle while it is something I can do with British boats.
Thank you Scott!
If that is what Epic calls rough water, what do they term the notably more complex and larger coastal conditions that many of us occasionally paddle in our supposedly inferior Brit boats?
If the Epic design was better, it would
be in Harvey Golden’s book right? Oops, it is, It is called a Baidarka, or at least it seems that way. Any design will likely have it’s strong points and weak points. I think I would like to see the Epic video with their boat at an angle to the breaking waves and also going with them in a quartering fashion. I suspect it would be a different video. I am interested in the QCC 700, but not to replace my current boats, but rather to add a design strength to my quiver. That strength is fast load hauler that has some “decent” sea manners. I paddled across a bay last summer in a 25mph broadside wind with another guy in a 18x. I have never seen someone look so uptight in my life. Those conditions were not the boat’s strength. I think the video only tells part of a story, the other part would not be considered a sales tool. Bill
Sorry F1 hands down 
That’s an assumption
A little 13 ft. Mariner Coaster with plumb (high volume bow) will out surf any pointy ended Brit boat you can find…and it’s working LWL is probably the same as most 16-17 ft. pointy enders. In fact, I’d argue that the pointy enders are less desireable in surf. Ever watch world caliber paddlers surfing surf ski’s.
BTW, I like paddling Brit boats, but they all suck in surf compared to my surf kayak, and I’d wager a 16 Epic, or even their Rec boat would surf as well. There’s nothing advantageous to pointy upswept ends in surf!
Good paddling to all.,
Hey wilso
ever watch the Molokai race?
that’s right
I keep on seeing plenty of aplomb bows in surf and tidal races.
The Brits got it all wrong so far.
Movies like Western Horizons, This is the Sea and so on are a hoax.
Why is the truth not spoken and evidence revealed that a decent surfing kayak should have no overhang?
Pointy is so 2008…
or is it?
(PS just in case somebody missed it; strong sarcasm has been used in the obove comment)
Only on screen
There are a lot of videos up on the race. The outriggers look particularly neat!
look at single-purpose surf boats
– Last Updated: Mar-16-09 12:29 PM EST –
Wave Skis have extremely swept up bows. Is that for trendy british looks too? Because if it is, they kinda missed the mark. ;) They're completely different boats, and of course a "brit boat" or epic type plumb bow are designed to combine a variety of characteristics for a wide range of conditions (whereas the wave ski is just designed for a single purpose). But my point is that extreme bow rocker is advantageous in steep surf. If it weren't I'm sure wave skis would look different. It keeps a boat from pivoting around the bow, and gives the bow a better chance of staying on top.
I'm not saying that design feature doesn't come with trade-offs. Of course all design choices do. But it's silly to say the only reason some boats have swept ends is mindless nostalgia.
Here we go…
OK, so your sacrcastic about my comments and clearly assuming that because you see these types of kayaks in Justine’s footage etc, they must be the “answer”. They are excellent kayaks and I own and paddle them. They are compromises That surf OK.
Try a Coaster in surf and contrast that with whatever you are in now… I’m simply saying there may be, and I believe are, better designs for surfing, rock gardening!
I know personally several guru designers of these boats and all have aknowledged room for innovation in sea touring. The challenge is the very traditional touring market.
Soon I will post a photo of a touring kayak that you will probably never see in a store, and probably will dismiss as well cuz it won’t look like anything in the sea kayak video’s but I assure you it will outsurf all of them.
Surf specific kayaks
are planing hulled craft that do indeed have an upswept bow…but NOT a knife edge vertical entry with a thin upswept pointy bow. You are not hearing what I’m “trying” to say. That’s OK.
I know a bit about surf kayaking…
Going paddling…
I recall a conversation with Freya
a year or so ago in Wales. She had enjoyed and appreciated the Brit boats she’d used and the sponsorship she’s had, but she wanted to explore other aspects of paddling and was drawn the the athletic side of performance paddling and all that entails. Her Epic V-10 and wing paddle had her interest big time. So for her, it was time to grow in a new direction.
What I like about Freya is her drive to follow her own whims. I know that she was concerned about offending past sponsors but didn’t need to be. Those folk are paddlers and wish her well regardless of what she paddles. I think she is a great addition to Epic and will help them develop the product more for touring.
No right, no wrong…just different boats and styles…and the water doesn’t care.
angstrom you beat me to it
the key difference that I noted in the video was that the epic paddler seemed to keep his weight up and forward and most importantly, kept paddling. While the brit boat, (romany explorer it looked like) leaned back and stopped paddling.
I’d like to do the test again with me in my foster silhouette against the guy in the epic. I will paddle consistently and keep my weight forward while he stops paddling and leans back when the waves hit and see what happens!
Yup, paddler is the biggest factor
Good technique IS more important than the boat.
Soon?
Soon as in while we remember you said this, or maybe a bit longer and we’ve forgotten and you can too…
Seems we’ve heard about some fantastic performing yet hard to market designs from you before Salty. 
Bring it already! No everyone has the “what my Guru paddles” bias, or are firmly in any camp. I for one would really like to see what you’re talking about, though touring and surf are a tough things for one hull to excel at…
Nah, he’s too busy selling Brit boats!
Greenland vs Baidarka
You make a good point there. This is a somewhat similar comparison and I think about this every time these “discussions” come up.
Brit boat are more along Greenland lines (at least the types typically referenced) with hard chines, pinched ends, longish overhangs, and often more fishform - while QCC is more (single) Baidarka like with longer relative waterline, fuller ends, and more swedeform.
Note I didn’t mention rocker.
Speaking of rocker, the QCC has quite a bit where the EPIC has very little. Also the newer EPIC 18X redesign is a faster more race oriented hull (read less primary) than it’s predecessor. If your friend was in one of those it could indeed have been a handful (though that’s still mostly a paddler thing).
Just just want to be sure you realize the QCC is a quite different animal than the EPIC, and even more so with latest version. People should really stop lumping them together. The visual similarities are misleading (just as it is with various Brit designs). Each good for what they were designed for but that, despite some overlap in what they can do, is not at all the same.
Greyak
fair enough. You have heard me say so, and you WILL see. I don’t reveal much. It’s cool stuff and YOU will appreciate it.