that’s a rather quare point of view
But hey, that’s what keeps pnet interesting
my dog died …
With some regularity someone will post on these forums that their dog died.
Invariably, they receive oodles and oodles of sympathy and regrets.
And, for some reason no one ever speculates as to the reasons the dog died and how the dog’s death may have been prevented like we do with real people.
Sorry, but I just think all this monday-morning quarterbacking every time someone dies is a bit morbid, at best.
And let’s not forget that awkward scene earlier this summer when a relative of the deceased stumbled upon our site while looking for on-line newspaper articles on the tragedy only to learn that we think it is perfectly okay to speculate as to the alcohol usage and intelligence of the deceased!
no one said that
…we think it’s perfectly ok to speculate about alcohol use and intelligence; if I recall, those who did so were called out for doing so. To me that doesn’t look like acceptance.
Dogs are a different story so that’s really a silly analogy.
We all get your aversion, I think in this case people have been very gentle. But let me ask you this: suppose someone came here next week and said, “you know, this thread got me reconsidering a long crossing I was going to do, and I’m thankful to have had the discussion”. How would you think a survivor might feel then?
A remarkably interesting analysis
– Last Updated: Oct-12-07 3:30 PM EST –
Mick Allen has written a very thought-provoking and objective analysis of the incident that is well worth taking the time to read. It can be found on the westcoastpaddler site at this location:
http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?p=25335#25335
(if the above link doesn’t work, Mick’s analysis is the last post on the page – it begins with “Aside from all the safety gear…”)
Dan
http://www.westcoastpaddler.com
good analysis
although I don’t agree with him in one of the follow up postings where he says that 45 knot winds with 6 foot seas are relativly safe conditions particularly if going down wind.
one of the things mentioned on the WCP website is that the paddlers in Howe Sound were no wearing PFDs–I didn’t get that from the news articles or the interviews. I know they weren’t wearing wet or dry suits but thought they had PFDs—am I wrong?
They had PFD’s
– Last Updated: Oct-12-07 4:28 PM EST –
Initial reports from the media said that none of the group were wearing PFD’s – that turned out to be false. Comments in that discussion regarding the lack of PFD’s were made before it was noted that the entire group did in fact have PFD’s.
jonsprag1, I don’t see where Mick said it was “relatively safe” to be paddling in those conditions – if you reread what he wrote, he stated “in this particular case, common ordinary rental sea kayaks, in ordinary loading were perfectly safe without having to do ANY recovery strokes” – he based this statement on the comment made my Bob in his interview where he stated that those in the larger kayaks didn’t have to brace to stay upright. I’m a bit reluctant to believe that no bracing was required but if so, then Mick’s words are not so out of line.
Dan
http://www.westcoastpaddler.com
A simpler analysis
Too easy to look at this simply from a kayakers perspective. All the post incident commentary needs to also reflect the context of adventure racing.
“Adventure racers” are rarely avid paddlers. Some are, but not most. Paddling is frequently the weakest link for individuals/teams (in overall event performance - typically not where they expect to do well, make up time, etc.), and naturally many like that part the least - and focus the least training time on it.
It is not uncommon for participants to be using borrowed or unfamiliar gear. A weird mix of craft and other gear is not uncommon. Even if familiar, this is not typically from a sea kayaking perspective. There is not likely going to be much beyond the basic boat/body/blade (and PFDs as required) - and clothing is not going to be paddling specific. It will be whatever they get to the beach wearing.
Most importantly: Paddling is typically the LAST leg of an event If moved to first, a lot of the obvious risks and mistakes folks are pointing out here and can be reduced.
still disagree
– Last Updated: Oct-12-07 7:20 PM EST –
well I guess that I would still disagree with his opinion that it is "perfectly safe" to paddle in 45 knot winds and 6 foot seas so long as you were going downwind--and not that I'm doubting the survivors veracity, but I cant imagine paddling downwind in those conditions with having to do at least a ruddering brace--often. Perhaps what he meant to say that of the options available to those folks, that was the safest(I would agree with that)
I have, like most of the people on this forum, been caught in conditions that were less than safe for me---the conditions were not predicted or expected---stuff happens--my training, skill and to a certain extent luck saw me through.
I hope that I would have the judgement not to go out to begin with in the kind of conditions, which were predicted, that these people ventured into. But I've also been around long enough to know that groups of paddlers can urge each other on and sometimes the combined pressure of the group can overcome our individual sense of judgement. It's happened with me and I'm sure has happened to others on this forum The most elequent part of the interview is when he says that next time he would be the chicken, no matter what the others say. Maybe we should all remember that.
Hi Salty
– Last Updated: Oct-12-07 9:06 PM EST –
Actually agree with you and hesitated putting this up as a posting because on a superfical level it can sound very new agey. On the other hand, I don't think that there's all that much difference between some sea kayakers and adventure racers who seem to think that humans are special and everything else is property to be bought, sold, triumphed over, managed or otherwise treated as other. Good judgement includes a felt as well as a common sense awareness of being a part of the environment within which we live. No ammount of BCU training or fancy gear can save someone from his or her own foolish need for power, prestige or profit.
ditto, worth the read
brutally honest
that news group said everything that needed said.
my turn
from what i know of this incident the paddlers were racers, not true sea kayakers.
to paddle sans pfd in a race they have rescue boats shadowing their every move. what rescue boat would be out in that.
i have paddled for 12 + years and would not consider paddling in that.
i have a good friend who paddles in everything. he has called races and stopped events for weather that threatened to be half of what they were in; 40 KM or 22 MPG winds cancel races because the sea state becomes broken and white caps make tracking kayaks difficult.
we have paddled in 60 + KM but with dry suits, spare paddles, pumps, tow ropes, flares, vhf radios, spare cloths and “Blankets” (oops).
that is some of the stuff i carry every trip.
we did this with a safe downwind sandy beach escape.
85 km winds 53 mph winds. in doubles.
i would like to know where the term experienced fell into this story.
fiona