Advice on kayak paddles

Advice
#22

I’m 6’ 0". My high angle Euro paddle is a Werner Cyprus at 210cm. My Ben Fontenot GP is 88" (223 cm). The “standard” length measurement is your height plus a cubit; the distance from you elbow to your furthest finger tip.

You have to remember that the blade of a GP starts right at the end of the loom (the shaft of the paddle) so you’re really not giving up on that much blade area. You can also slide a GP between your hands to extend it on one side - the end of the blade should be narrow enough that you can still grip it. It’s the extra leverage you can get while doing this that helps with turning, bracing and rolling.

The only issue with CF GPs is that you are stuck with standard sizing. That may be fine but a good wooden paddle maker can build you one to your exact dimensions.

There are quite a few builders around. Ben Fontenot has built one for me and one for my wife for around the cost you quote for a CF paddle. See his info on sizing here… http://bfpaddles.com/orderacustomgreenlandpaddleform

#23

My Greenland paddles have typically been a bit shorter than the Euro paddles I started out with. My first E’s were 230 cm which was actually a bit too long (I am a short waisted 5’ 5" with relatively short arms) but I started out with a kayak with a 25" beam and used a low angle stroke so that was OK. My first GP was custom made to my body specs so it was 213 CM. Since getting that paddle 12 years ago I have gone to narrower low profile boats – I do now tend to use a high angle stroke, by the way. So I have replaced the longer Euros with 220’s and when I bought the Gearlab it only went down to 220 so that is what I use now. Would have probably opted for a 210 if it was offered. But seeing as the difference between a 213 and a 220 is only 3/4" at each end, it really is negligible and I am not conscious of any significant difference in use. I agree with Allan Olesen, that the loom (for placement of your hands) is more important than overall length. That and whether it is un-shouldered or shouldered and has rounded or straight across ends. I prefer un-shouldered (smooth taper from blade to shaft and loom) and rounded.

I know many say that your GP should be longer than your EP – in fact native Aleut paddles (also long and skinny but a different design than Greenland paddles) are MUCH longer than either GP’s or EP’s. But I have been quite happy with what I have for speed, maneuvering, bracing, sculling and rolling.

I only use an EP (usually carry one as my deck spare) to switch off on long paddles or if I need to negotiate tight turns and rocky shorelines or obstacles where I don’t want to beat up the GP. If I use one at all for any length of time I am always relieved to get back to the GP. It’s all in what you become used to.

On the clueless paddlers: since I am female I’ve learned that telling people they were “holding it wrong” only triggered embarrassment and defiance, especially with guys. So I just say “you know you’ll get more power to your stroke if you flip it over and reverse the face – give that a try some time and see how you like it”.

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#24

Many people who make Greenland paddles say that when you are standing with the paddle upright beside you, you should just be able to curl your fingers over the end of the blade. The loom should be about the length between the outsides of your hands when holding them up as if to signal a touchdown. The diameter of the loom should allow you to comfortably encircle it with your thumb and forefinger. Many people like to “index” the loom, making it slightly oval shaped in alignment with the blades. This allows you to always know the orientation of the blades without having to look. Useful in rolling.

The advantage of a homemade Greenland paddle is it’s light weight and low cost with no ferrule. The lack of a ferrule can make it a challenge to transport. Some people have used a length of 4" PVC pipe fastened to their roof rack with screw off end caps. The other advantage is that you make it precisely the way you want it.

A Greenland paddle made from clear western red cedar can cost as little as $50. Many swear that a Greenland paddle is easier on the shoulders and is superior to a Euro paddle for rolling.

#25

So today, I paddled, even though my back is out… Bulging disc. <Grumble.>

Took the Tsunami out on the lake, went for 2 miles turned around, and went 2 miles back. I did this 3 times with my three lightest paddles.

I took my Harmony, Sea Passage paddle (235cm) my Accent Kauai (230cm) and my Carlisle Paddle (225cm)

All the paddles were within .05 Oz of each other, with the Accent being the lightest and the Harmony being the heaviest.

As for blade size, the Harmony has the smallest surface area and the Carlisle having the largest surface area.

my times for each run was averaged for the downwind run and the upwind run. This time I really didn’t screw around and used the touring boat as it is supposed to be used, fast and in a more or less straight line.

So here’s how things went.

The first paddle I used was the Harmony Sea Passage.

My average speed with it over 4 miles was 4.950 mph - GPS measured.

By the end of that run my shoulder gave me the big FU, well only the right one.

Next paddles used was the Accent Kauai.

My average speed with it was 4.987 Mph over the same 4 miles as measured by the GPS.

No complaints with it. I figured it’d be faster than the harmony, as it had a larger blade area. but what a difference in how much it fatigued me, or rather didn’t.

Finally I ran with the Carlisle.

My Average speed with it over the 4 miles was 4.914 mph again as measured by the GPS.

However this paddle beat the living snot out of me. In driving up to speed the paddle had all kinds of flutter, completely perpendicular to your stroke direction. On top of that it wanted to yaw in you hands to edge on. My wrists took a real beating on this paddle. and as soon as the run was done I was done with it… it has returned to the nether-regions of my garage, never to be seen again.

The surprising thing for me was it had the largest surface area of all the paddles yet was the slowest. I guess this was to be attributed to it fighting me all the way.

When all was done I ran 2 miles back to the dock using the Accent Kauai, and even at the leisurely pace I had set, face it after 12 miles of speed run I was spent. I still clocked a 4.418 Mph run tot he docks.

So after all this testing I find I guess my ideal paddle surface area (At-least for a high angle paddle) is around 650 Sq/cm.

The harmony paddle blades are around 600 sq/cm per blade.
The Accent is around 650 sq/cm per blade.
the Carlisle is slightly bigger at around 675 sq/cm per blade.

Now just waiting on my Low angle paddle to see how that fares.

If that works well for me, I suspect I’ll be looking into the Greenland paddles as per everyone’s suggestions.

#26

Well not quite everyone’s recommendations. I’ve paddled with more different paddles than I can remember–including GPs and just about every Euro I could get my hands on. My experience is that there is a lot more to a good paddle than the blade size and shape. The shaft stiffness and strength is a very big deal when you get into real bumpy water. How well the ferrule works for quick feathering and dependability is another big deal. I also look with an eye on what you get for your money. Carbon costs a lot for only a few ounces of less weight and I am very careful where I use a carbon paddle.

I have different paddles that I use with different boats, but I have my favorites with each boat. Most of my paddles just take up space in my shop these days, while my two favorites get to go paddling. Neither one is a GP. One is a Werner and the other is a Carlisle.

I still say that for the money, the Carlisle Expedition is the best all around paddle I’ve found, but then I was lucky to get mine before the price almost doubled.

#27

The first two paddles you mention seem like dihedral paddles to me. Those are more forgiving to a bad paddling stroke, but also less efficient.

Since I don’t know your Carlisle model, I can’t say anything about that one. But I would say that the symptoms you mention are very usual for a bad paddle stroke in combination with a non-dihedral paddle. So this could be the explanation, rather than the blade size.

#28

The speed differences seem to be so small as to be meaningless differing only by 0.073 mph between the fastest and slowest. In addition, if these were all run on the same day you would have to factor in fatigue and possible slightly changing conditions. I would be hesitant to ascribe the speed differences solely to the paddle based on this single trial. Ideally, you would want to run multiple trials varying the order of the paddles used.

With these being so close to each other I would assess them more on which one felt more comfortable to paddle.

#29

@Allan_Olesen The Carlisle paddle is a much older design, and was one of my first paddles. It is a asymmetric completely flat blade (Flat like a canoe paddle.)

When putting power behind the stroke the vorticies it creates combined with the flat shape cause the flutter. once you reach cruising speed in that you’re not applying power to accelerate and your stroke power matches boat speed the flutter, perpendicular to you stroke ends. However it still wants to twist in your hands along the axis of the shaft, due to the asymmetry of the blade.

It’s just a bad blade design. further compounded by the blades being hollow and wanting to float. Its a good paddle for kids who drop their paddle as it cannot sink even if taken apart the blades will bob upright with the shafts down.

If my back wasn’t in agony I’d go out to the garage and take some picture to show you what I mean.

#30

@Rstevens since the fastest paddle was run second, I can eliminate fatigue. in fact if we were factoring for fatigue, it should be even faster than the Harmony.

I do know for a fact when I paddled back after testing the Accent was what I wanted to use and did use. Overall for me it was the best performing paddle of my High Angle paddles.

The Carlisle was a non-starter as due to its issue just beat you up when trying to go fast. So I’m glad I placed it last as it would have really screwed up my testing. When I was done with it, my shoulders were in pain, as were my wrists. You can read into my thoughts regarding why in my response to Allan.

It does have a plus the blades are hollow and sealed, so they want to float, so if you give the Carlisle to your kids and they drop it there is zero chance of having to go diving to retrieve it, even if they take it apart and fill the shaft with water. (Yes my son tried this one when he was 4.) This buoyancy adds to some of the problem with the paddle and it’s performance.

#31

Yes, that is characteristic for a non-dihedral paddle being used wrongly. You are probably trying to pull in a direction, which is fully perpendicular to the blade. The water will not know which way to go around the blade, so you get a lot of flutter.

A dihedral blade “solves” this by forcing one half of the water to go on each side of the blade. However, the price you pay for this is a lowered efficiency.

When paddling with a non-dihedral blade, you need to have a little side slip, so the water will know which way to flow around the blade. Look at kayakers using a wing paddle - it is the same technique, though perhaps a bit more extreme.

Disclaimer: I don’t know your Carlisle paddle. It may also be a bad paddle for other reasons. But the flatness of the blade is surely not a sign of a bad paddle.

#32

@Allan_Olesen So I tried putting in a little slip on the Carlisle, it still flutters. Perpendicular to the stroke.

I blame the hollow blades for this, as when you put them in they immediately want to bob up to the surface. This is the only paddle I’ve ever had this happen with Even the Kids el-cheap-o aluminum one with canoe style oar blades on it.

@Rstevens15 I ran the Accent Kuiai first this time, just to take Fatigue out of the equation. So not fatigued, the Accent pulls me along at 5.212mph. Granted now conditions were different, as in worse, high winds crossing my path that I had to use the rudder to stop weathercocking and that just slows me down, in addition to waves breaking over the bow. So I suspect that run lost me some speed. Oh well.

I also ran the Accent Lanai paddle just to cut my teeth. It, well I should say did poorly. Ive done so much high angle paddling that my transition to low angle did not go as planned. My stroke low angle needs work.

On all my other paddles, (high angle.) I use a 60deg feather. on my control hand. low angle the most feather I can do is 5deg, I also tried 0 feather and still issue, but different, as I was still trying to twist the paddle for control. I need some more practice with it.

so for the rest of the kicking about on the lake, I wnet back to the Accent Kuiai. The one thing I did notice about the low angle is It was much easier. now if I can just figure out the stroke and stop doing the mechanics you do high-angle, when you are low angle.

Again everyone thanks for your help and suggestions.

#33

I don’t know what kind of hollow blades your paddle has, but I can tell you that foam core blades exist in several high end carbon fibre paddles.

And yes, those paddles can be more difficult to use. They are not made that way because the fabricator was stupid. They are made that way because it fits the needs of a skilled paddler.

#34

@Allan_Olesen the blades are a clear plastic material (you can see through.) and completely flat… maybe a 1/16 inch thick. However where the shaft attaches is basically a tube of shaft diameter (2") that tapers out about halfway to the blade edge at right angles to the shaft and continues longitudinally to about 2" to the tip. This part is completely hollow, air-filled.

If I look on the manufacturers website I see nothing like it in their inventory, and have not seen anything like it in any box store since 8 years ago. It looks like they made one run and I just happened to pick it up as it was the only fiberglass shaft paddle in stock when I bought my fishing boat. Never seen anything like it since.

But when I bought it I had just begun my transition from white water, and this was the closest design to my one piece WW paddle. Shortly after I was given a Bending Branches Paddle, so I had never really used it. Until I went looking for speed in the touring arena. Hoping that a larger surface are would get me where I wanted to be.

Turns out my littlest Ascent gets me over 5mph. go figure… Since I’m doing high angle with it I suspect it outperforms the larger Accent just due to less mass I have to swing about.

But High angle is definitely tougher on the shoulders, now that I got a low angle one (my first low angle paddle in 39 years of paddling.). I just need to clean up my stroke with it before I can compare it’s performance to its high angle brothers.

I’d get some practice in today but it looks like bad weather is pushing in. Adn even though paddling in the rain does not bother me, it’s the lightning that does.

#35

I have 3 ONNO wing paddles and I use them for each one of my boats. Over the years I realized that my first wing was too long, then I got another a bit shorter, then I got one one shorter still with slightly smaller blades. That was the one! 210 cm, with 10 cm adjustment. I paddle with no feather, and I can maintain 4.5 mph for hours In my Kajaksport Artisan Millenium