TD, check out these blasts from the past. The outfitters I worked at from 1972 to 1979 stocked every one of these brands. I must have sold several thousand pairs of Fabiano boots and enough Camp 7 down bags and jackets during those years to fill the Astrodome.:
that was definately my era- add some vasque boots, a svea or phoebus stove, which you had to douse in whitegas to get lit in cold weather, The x-gk was handy cause you could just fill it up at the gas station but you had to like lots of black carbon inside your pack, and it had one cooking speed- scorching (think burnt rice-a-roni) hot. There were Sierra cups (I nicknamed “spill always cups”) and let’s not forget the refilliable plastic tubes for peanutbutter and jelly, that were sure to spill all over your pack when the plastic clips broke.
Remember the early whitish sleeping pads? I think the term insulation was a misnomer. I went through 3 external frame kelty’s before lowe popularized internal frames but probably my dumbest idea was to try lift tele-skiing on chouniard’s Tua’s. At least they had steel edges. Ahh but what can I say, I still got the Tua’s in case I want to seriously hurt myself again (but I won’t really use them) and a perception mirage sits under the porch as well. Someday I might get a hankerin’ to try an ender again. No phoenix slippers, hollowforms, riverchasers, lettmans, or madriver mes in the stable now but at one time those boats were all state of the art and I paddled them because they were within my budget as used boats and readily available as people rushed out to buy dancers and the like. As I prepare to head out the door for an overnight I grab a bandana- old habits die hard I guess…here’s .picture of my current “tent” a Thor compass, kayaks go vertically on a rack located on the back. DSCF4853|375x500
Wow - that is a blast from the past. I still have my older brother’s external frame REI backpack, probably from 1968 or so - a true torture rack.
My first REI purchase was a down sweater, not nearly as nice as the one in that ad. In 1974 with co-op membership I think it came to $24, a lot for me at the time. I wore the sweater hiking for 5 or 6 years, then it functioned as my cold-weather construction inner layer of for another 10 until it ‘shrank’ and didn’t fit anymore. Funny how that happens…
Maybe we need to set up a geezer gear nostalgia thread (now that I have carelessly hijacked this one).
My first hiking boots were Vasque! I literally wore them out. A few years ago I struggled to make a list of how many pairs I have gone through since - likely missed a few but I came up with 27 in 50 years (I usually have several pairs at any given time of different “gauges”).
I still have my Phoebus winter stove, in the red enameled tin can. It’s the big one with the pump, which made the priming less of a conflagration.
I hung on to the Bleuet butane stove I bought in 1972 for $10 (when the Gendarme climbing gear shop at Seneca Rocks in WV recieved a shipment of them numbering 5 dozen instead of the 5 stoves that they paid for and shared the largesse with customers by discounting them deeply). The gas canisters for it have been unavailable, even in Europe, for close to a decade. But then, lo and behold, when I was delivering a box of my old gear to the local outfitter who sells used stuff on consignment, they showed me another Bleuet and 6 vintage but intact fuel canisters that another geezer had dropped off and told them to give away if they could. So I will be using Old Blue again!! Never burned the eggs with that infinitely adjustable little guy.
Ah, Gerry tubes (the infamous peanut butter dispensers that not only leaked but were impossible to clean). And the dreadful Sierra cups. I confess to having sold thousands of both to unsuspecting novice hikers during my years in the trade. In my defense, they would come in asking for them. By the way, Sierra cups work very well for scooping dog kibble from big bags (or feeding oats and apple chunks to ponys with minimal slobber on your hands.) But as camping mugs they are awful. I suspect their original intent was to enable scooping water from shallow brooks. Or maybe for gold panning>
And remember when the only socks you could get for hiking were the grey Wigwam Raggs, with their toe seam that produced blisters and the 15% nylon content that meant that the heels eventually wore bare to a mesh because the non-stretch “reinforcing” synthetic fibers (in the days before Lycra) would cut and shred the wool content until it vanished? And the inexplicable popularity of the “60/40” hooded and multi-pocketed “mountain parka” shell jackets, which sort of blocked wind but absorbed rain like a sponge? But having one was a badge of wilderness trekker “cred”, even more so if it had the coveted plaid wool lining. I still have one (which has shrunk, just as Carl’s down sweater did) that I made from one of the Altra kits, which, along with the DIY products from Frostline and Holubar, allowed those of us of limited means and a sewing machine to get some prime gear on the cheap.
Speaking of the kit gear, I sweat blood for an entire 3 day weekend to sew Holubar’s winter grade down vee-baffled mummy bag with over 2 pounds of 700 fill down, which when complete was insufferably hot to sleep in above 10 F and had nearly a foot of loft. I had to construct an industrial grade compression bag to get the thing packed compactly enough to lash to a pack frame. At one point I loaned it to my 6’ 3" friend, Jerry, who was headed to an expedition in the Andes – two days before departure the bag he had ordered from REI arrived in a “short” rather than “long” size so we swapped for the trip. When he was at one of the higher camps on the climb, on a somewhat precipitous ledge, he fumbled while trying to attach it to his pack and it fell over the cliff. He yelped and his companions joined him to watch it bounce down the rock face towards the glacier below – somebody said “the stuff sack will blow out soon and it will hang up and stop”. But unfortunately that double stitched cordura bag I made with the seatbelt webbing compression straps held together until the bag disappeared from sight. Jerry couldn’t stay up on the mountain without a sleeping bag so he hoisted his pack and headed down towards base camp. He eventually found it only about 200 yards from base camp, still intact with a few scuff marks. But he was unable to summit since by the time he climbed back up the next day the weather had turned and they couldn’t do a second summit party. But he said it kept him damned warm. I eventually went to a double bag system (down mummy nested in a polyfill overbag) that was easier to haul and more versatile and sold the giant arctic bag to a guy headed to the Karakoram for a 3 month multi-peak trek.
That pallid closed cell foam ground mat TD mentions was Ensolite, which was originally a product used as underlayment for artificial turf in sports stadiums. Grandad of yoga mats! I slept on a 1/2" thick one (most were the thinner 3/8") for many years when I was young and rugged. I actually still have that mat but had cut it in half years ago to use as a seating pad in my skin on frame kayak. The stuff is more durable and less absorbent than the yoga mats I had variously tried even though the material by now is nearly 48 years old. It’s getting to look like somebody died on it but I am hanging on to it. In fact maybe I will request in my will that they line my coffin with it.
Here is another selection of vintage 70’s ads (including the infamous Timberline):
my favorite and still in use sleeping bag. A Gerry down bag from the 60’s. I don’t remember its temperature rating but these days it is a lot less. One at a time flyaway feather over 50 years probably counts.
My Optimus 11B
But we had garbage bags and no dry bags!
I remember when Therma Rest pads were all the new thing. They were ridiculously bulky and still relatively thin but bombproof.
OP, you can learn about waterproofness and how much of it you need here: https://www.intentsoutdoors.co.nz/blogs/news/high-and-dry-a-quick-guide-to-understanding-waterproof-ratings-at-a-tent-sale (from New Zealand, a rainy place). For a US source see https://www.msrgear.com/blog/tent-fabrics-part-2-waterproof-ratings/
It’s hard to find objective recommendations for how much waterproofness you need. The MSR link is a bit biased toward the low end. I believe this is a rational statement from Moonlight Tents at http://thetentlab.com/MoonLightTents/Waterproofness.html: “My own ad-hoc waterproofness testing method (make a water “ballon” of fabric and squeeze it) often shows pinholes and beads of water in 1200mm waterproof samples which makes me nervous. 1500mm waterproofness samples never do this so I feel much better about 1500mm.” The article continues, “MoonLights will have 1500-2000mm sil/pu• coatings on the rainfly and 2000-3000mm sil/pu coatings on the floor. I’m happy enough to let the floor coating be a little beefy - it’s only a few square yards and people can be hard on a floor. The rainfly is definitely overkill but if we spec it too low, it might come in with occasional pinholes and we don’t want that no matter what the test method says.” The author mentions that the US military standard is 1500 mm.
One thing is sure: you won’t find any reliable sources that recommend 800 mm.
Notice that how much waterproofness you need depends on the weather where you camp, and that pressure on the tent floor (kneeling on it, for example) increases the need for a higher HH rating on the floor, as does abrasion (something rubbing against the fly or floor).
Yeah, they taught us back in the various manufacturer gear schools that down eventually breaks down and after 20 or so years loses much of its ability to maintain loft and insulate. The barbs and barbules on the down clumps and feathers begin to detach from the structures and settle into more densely packed masses – it’s the air trapped amongst the interstices between the fluff that keeps you warm.
In fact there was a huge scandal in the late 1970’s when industry giant in the sleeping bag and down jacket biz, Snow Lion, was revealed to have received multiple large shipments of their products made in China that had been filled with what is called “couchet” down – “couchet” is down and feathers that have been salvaged, sanitized and “recycled” from old European and Asian duvet bedding. Very substandard stuffing that really doesn’t provide much loft or hold up.
The vast majority of down comes from China where millions of ducks and geese are slaughtered for food every year, which was why down gear was so often subcontracted to Chinese companies, even back in the 70’s. In Snow Lion’s defense, they did not realize that they had been stiffed until thousands of items had been sold and then they had to scramble to track them down and offer compensation or replacement. I was one of the unfortunate buyers of one of the down bags affected by it. It was such a novel bag and I was so disappointed (could not be replaced with same since they had discontinued the style). It was a semi squared off design that had a removable hood that could be attached to either side and a two part zipper, one down the side and a separate short zipper across the foot. So it could be opened flat to use as a double quilt for two or set up to zip together on the right or left with another bag with the same common YKK number 5 gauge zipper. But I had it for less than two years before it became visibly flatter and MUCH less warm, even though I had been diligent about never storing it compressed (which squashes the down structure and reduces loft) and having it cleaned by approved methods that did not dry the down and make it more fragile. The company (I still worked for one of their dealers) offered to give me some sort of big discount off another bag to replace it rather than a replacement but I instead sold it (for more than the discount) to somebody who just wanted a summer weight bag, which by then was all it was good for. Put that money towards the Trailwise 3 season down mummy I still have. Have not used that Trailwise in at least 10 years so it has been in a cotton bag in the closet for a long time. I should check it out – betting it is not anywhere near as fluffy as it was when new in 1978.
I moved to the roll-up thick open cell foam nylon jacketed sleeping pads 30 years ago but they were bulky and heavy to pack though heavenly to sleep on. Got a Thermarest eventually but was never all that thrilled with it since my hips seem to push through it when I sleep on my side.
Three years ago I picked up a Klymit tubular air mattress (super cheap at a weird sporting goods store that didn’t even seem to know what the thing was and had marked it down to $20) which has proven to be amazing. Packs down about the size of a beer can so it is super easy to stash in a backpack or kayak hatch. Remarkably comfortable for such a small package. My years of being able to sleep on a 1/2" layer of stiff foam are long past.
Like many here, I was a 70’s and beyond backpacker gear head. I still have my Svea 123 and occasionally heat something up on at home just to hear it. I have worn out my share of boots and parkas. I am presently sporting a vintage Banana Equipment Goretex parka in a bright forest green. Was from one of our local thrift stores where clothes are just a buck. It has replaced a similar vintage black REI goretex with red down liner. Its hood is a nuisance.
This thread has really taken off… maybe sideways!
Thanks for the input everyone.
Sorry about that (as one of the guiltiest parties). It’s clear that a lot of us in northern latitudes have cabin fever. I have not been out on the water since October and am getting more than a little wonky.
Don’t apologize. This has been the most interesting thread in a long while.
OP: MSR Elixir 3 would be the tent I’d get. A bit more expensive than you want, but a decent tent. If you want cheaper, buy an REI brand tent.
REI…we had four on our chickie. We took a lot of “ridicule” from the WalMart’ers cause we spent so much on a tent.
Pretty heavy (10 pounds) but this Kelty 4-man that Sierra Trading Post is selling for $99 is tall enough to stand up in to get in and out of a drysuit or wet suit and would be quite a lot of space for two people. Campmor and Sierra Trading Post used to have great deals on discontinued and overstocked models of decent brand tents but that is no longer the case.
I have sometimes been able to snag great deals on gear, tents included, by seeking good brands that are languishing on the shelves of the “big box” sporting goods emporia (those places full of golf and soccer and hunting gear with the tiny wilderness sports aisle). I got my beloved Marmot tent at a Gander Mountain in Michigan (a chain more known for fishing and hunting stuff than backpacking equipage) for 40% off list price. And more recently, I picked up my Klymit Static V air mattress (currently $60 at REI) at a Dunham’s store (another soccer and hunting gear vendor) for $19.99 when I found it kicking around a shelf with a “half off” tag on it but apparently missing the repair patch kit. Honestly, I would have gladly paid the $30 it was already marked down to but was perfectly happy for the manager at the checkout to slash it another $10 when I noted the missing parts. When I got home I discovered that the kit was actually in there, just hidden inside the rolled up pad! Did not feel guilty enough to go back and offer to return the discount. I got the feeling the store manager was glad that somebody actually found the thing and recognized what it was. The store has very little high end backpacking gear and who knows how that product even landed there.
Thrift stores can be unexpected sources for nice gear if you have the patience to regularly check them. I got a very nice women-specific LaFuma 3 season mummy sleeping bag (worth about $90 new) at a thrift store 3 years ago for $5. Washed up like new and I used it at Greenland kayak camp that summer.
Another local thrift store yielded a pair of fairly new high end cross country skis and a pair of unused Atlas snowshoes last Fall. I paid $20 for each pair and sold them on consignment at my local outfitters for $80 and $60, respectively, for which I got $84 in store credit and two people got nice gear for less than half the new price. I noticed that the shop had several tents on consignment when I was there last week but I was in a hurry and could not check what models they were or condition.
Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace can be good sources for budget gear (again, you need to have patience and know what you are looking for in terms of brands). I have found most local sellers are OK with setting up (or letting me set up) a tent (or folding kayak) when I am willing to come and look at it and offer cash to buy it.
Found another tent deal: there are a few discontinued colors of the North Face 3 person Talus 3, which at 5 lbs 7 ounces is a nice weight for one that size and has a nearly 4’ center height and two vestibules. Most vendors like EMS are out of stock and North Face has not started selling the new version yet, but Backcountry has a few on sale for $175 (30% off).
I feel a bit outclassed here, skimming the other replies, but I’ve always had good luck with the basic Coleman dome tents (like the current “Sundome” line).
They are too heavy to make good backpacking tents, but they’ve always been sturdy and have never leaked. The sturdiness is most appreciated (1) when it’s windy and (2) when you want to clean it out. Just pick the whole thing up, tilt it towards the door, shake it, set it back down, and sweep the stuff out.
The one thing to watch out for is if you’re pushing out against the side of the tent in a place where the water runs down on the tent material itself (i.e. the rainfly drips onto the tent side there), some water will wick through the tent material and get you wet there. So don’t get an undersized tent.
Hoooly cow a few of these replies were soo long winded I forgot what the OP’s actual question was !!!
Boils down to this
Tent’s labeled as a 3 person tent is typically good space for 2 & gear, not 3 and gear.
Rainflys that do not provide full top to bottom coverage are not effective at all.
Climate of areas you will kayak dictates tent type don’t pay for hi altitude mtneering tent when you just need normal climate shelter.
Zipper quality can be an issue
Pack an xtra tarp for over the tent if rain is expected it is invaluable per keeping your tent and it’s immediate area TOTALLY dry.
For under $300 visit the REI or other outdoor shops to see for yourself.
Then if you find it cheaper online go for it.
Remember Kayak capacity is limited so pack weight carefully You’d be surprised how little you really need .
Alps, Eureka, North Face (the used older ones really hold up well), Kelty, are just a few brands,
Again watch the weight.
Sturoc: Thank you!
I shopped a new tent in ‘18. After looking at many, I decided to take a chance on an off brand: Teton Sports. At a little more than a hundred dollars, I figured it was a mistake I could afford to make.
In ‘19 I camped in the Teton 25 nights. Some pounding rain. Some high winds. The tent has been fine.
Nice that the tent price included a footprint. It does not have much in the way of side pockets. It did come with a gear loft, which I don’t use much. I expect this tent’s fly will eventually fail where it drapes over a cross pole. They should have putt a pocket or reinforcing at those two contact points. But so far, I’m very happy with this tent.