Hmmmmmmmm
Closed cell foam or open cell foam?
Jim
Two new Seats
– Last Updated: Nov-09-09 8:29 PM EST –
We saw two new seats at Raystown this past weekend. Both are excellent and viable choices along with Ed's Contour Cane Bucket.
The Hemlock seat, made by Conk, has a laminated frame, is gently curved across the front crossbar and angled downwards to reduce thigh pinch, and has web cross straps.
DY was rattling around with Swifts new seat, also a laminated frame but curved at both crossbars with the front steeply angled down to relieve thigh stress; again with web support.
Both are fine new seats with the web characteristics of longer life for upside and the downside ability to hold water longer than cane after being exposed to rain.
We couldn't compare weight because the Hemlocks were bolted into boats. Only the Swift, 1lb 10oz uncut and Ed's, 1lb 12oz cut for FlashFire, were loose. All three attach with double drilled seat drops or trusses, using machine screws through the rail. The attachment set-up weighing ~2 1/2oz w/ 10-24 machine screws and finish washers,
The Swift may not be available other than bolted in Swift Canoes, the Hemlock seems to be available to retro fit other brands.
My final answer
I, too, looked at the seats at Raystown, and am having Dave Curtis install Conk’s ash-cedar solo seat in the used Wildfire I bought after starting this thread.
Marc Ornstein’s synthetic cane seat is similar in design concept to the Conk-Hemlock, and I probably would prefer the synthetic cane to poly webbing. However, since the custom cane weaving is very labor intensive, the Conk-Hemlock seat seemed to be more cost effective and was also immediately available.
I tried the Ed’s cane bucket seat on PBlanc’s Merlin and certainly liked it a lot better than the flat cane seat. However, it does lock you more into a central position than the C-H seat.
The ash-cedar lamination of the C-H seat is lighter than the Ed’s flat cane seat that came with the Wildfire, even though it is significantly wider, according to my hand lifting in Dave Curtis’ shop.
Perhaps I should have asked Conk if he could make a cross-weave of black and gold poly webbing for my used black-gold Wildfire … which, as it turns out, he almost bought before I did.
Any photos
available for these new seats?
Sure
email me at charliewilson610@roadrunner.com. I have pics of the Swift and Eds contour, may have one of the Conk seat in a Hemlock.
Of course, I can’t post on Pnet?
cew
My version of B/G
http://www.grovestreet.com/PicPage.do?id=1300045
I imagine that a checkerboard would be quite handsome.
Jim
Back in '73, I devised a foam pedestal
seat for my little MR Compatriot. It had a wide back portion for sitting and was contoured to support my spread legs when kneeling. (It was Ethafoam.) When sitting, the boat trim was about level, while when kneeling, the boat trimmed a bit bow up for the class 1-2 whitewater I was running in the boat.
As an added feature, forward extensions on the pedestal allowed portaging, though a paddle had to be shoved in the bow to help portage balance.
25+ years later, I bought an outfitted Royalex MR Guide, used, from NOC, for $400. It had a wider portion in the back of its Mohawk minicell pedestal for sitting, and the previous owner had glued in foot blocks. The Mohawk saddle was also contoured on the sides to spread the thighs. As with my erstwhile Compatriot, the Guide trimmed near level when sitting but somewhat bow up when kneeling. When not using Mohawk’s somewhat overdesigned thigh strap, I can easily swing my legs forward from kneeling to sitting. There is no provision for portage, but I plan to add one.
So, most foam pedestals are designed for kneeling only, but in my very early '73 design, I found that comfortable sitting was also possible, where water conditions and stability permitted.
I don’t know of any inherent desadvantages to foam pedestal designs. Because I am very tall, I can paddle all of my pedestal equipped boats leaned to one side if I care to, but short people might miss the ability to shift their butts to one side. I know that some people do not like the way a foam pedestal can lock them in one position, by contrast with seats and thwarts. Obviously a minicell pedestal adds flotation, and it also provides flexible support between the hull and the (usual) support thwart. A properly designed kneeling/sitting pedestal, with portage extensions, might weigh only a little more than many of the wooden seat designs discussed.
folding chair
i have a 17’ black river canoe , iuse a folding beach sand type chair with old water hose on the contact points to not damage the floor of my canoe . i can adjust my cg as desired to fit my needs. cheap and convenient!
Hemlock comfort curve seat now tested
I have now field tested the new laminated Hemlock seat for two days on the twisty Mullica in the Pine Barrens and two days on rivers and lakes in Connecticut.
It is the best bench seat I have ever used. You can shift laterally on it. You can also sit all the way back for cruising, or shift onto the curved front rail to lower your center of gravity or to pitch the bow down for enhanced maneuverability. You can also sit comfortably with legs extended for hit 'n switch paddling.
AFAIK, the seats are only available through Hemlock, but Dave Curtis will sell them for any boat (meaning, they are not proprietary to his canoes).
Pictures of the Hemlock seat
– Last Updated: Nov-10-09 5:26 PM EST –
thanks
Sorry for the late reply. Thanks conk and charlie for the pictures, I appreciate it.
Do you
have any pictures of the seat? I have looked on their website, but have not seen any pictures there either.
Conk posted pictures above
Couple of questions
Thanks for this thread. I’ve got an older B/G Wildfire; the stock seat is most uncomfortable. I’ve tried a variety of pads, including one from Cooke Custom Sewing, but the side frame still “punches” through. After a few hours my butt gets numb. Since kneeling is no longer an option for me, I’ve been looking for a new seat. So, couple of questions:
Was your Wildfire composite or Royalex? Also, how well did the new seat drops line up with the old seat drops? Can’t really tell from the pics --is the webbed portion of the new seat wider than the cane portion of the old seat (guess I’m really asking if the seat frame width is larger)?
What kind of fasteners for the web
are you using Conk? I mean, staples, of course. But are they SS or Al?
Couple of answers
Assuming it’s me you’re asking.
My Wildfire is a 2002 Black-Gold composite that I just bought used.
The screw holes for the Bell Wildfire drop block match the holes for the Hemlock comfort curve seat, or Dave Curtis (or you) can drill the seat holes to match. I think there is a sort of industry standard of 8" between the holes.
Dave Curtis installed my new seat. He was able to use the original Bell Wildfire drop block. I specified that the underside of the center of the curved front bar of the seat should be 8" off the bottom of the canoe. Dave said he actually had to take about 1/4" off the drop block to meet my specification, which surprised me since I thought the Bell block was going to be too short. In retrospect, since I like a very low kneeling seat, I would have installed the Hemlock seat on the Bell Wildfire drop block “as is” to see how it felt. I am 5-9.
The webbed portion of the Hemlock seat is significantly wider than the caned portion of a stock cane seat. Conk may have given the exact dimensions above.
Conk’s pictures show both the ash-cedar laminated version and the all ash version. I would definitely recommend the lighter ash-cedar version, unless perhaps you are well over 200 pounds. Dave Curtis I’m sure can advise on this.
Thank You.
Your assumption was correct. Really appreciate the input. Looks like a new Conk seat is in my future…
I repeat myself
but I really have enjoyed this thread!
A coupla thoughts:
- Conk, great workmanship on those seats. Wish I could have seen them in person.
- Did you invest in upolstery tools to tension the web? Or just honk on the web until it was sufficiently tight?
- Was the front rail inside edge radiiused? Stock seats always seem to have sharp edges there leading to uncomfortable pinching and premature failure of the seat fill material.
+I chuckle at all of this talk of ounces. As a Certified Big Guy I built my seat system with overkill in all areas of potential failure.
A tip of my Tilley to all of my brothers out there who are, like me, on The Never Ending Quest for Gluteal Bliss!
Jim
Jim
– Last Updated: Nov-16-09 11:45 AM EST –
I have not tried the upholsters tools that your talking about. I have an upholsterer friend from whom I hope to barrow them to see if they make the task easier. I have some doubts that they will fit in the confined space of a canoe seat and I fear that the fulcrum point of the pliers may cause unacceptable damage to the inside of the rail. I want to test before I invest. I have very good success with a pair of sheet metal Vice-Grips and brute strength but it requires that the seat be clamped so it won’t move. I don’t want to waste any of the brute strength (honks) I have left in this body so I’m looking for alternatives. The design portion of my brain is mulling some modifications to the Vice-Grips if the upholsters web stretcher doesn’t work.
Because the front rail is curved and the back rail is straight there is a bit of a gap between the webbing and the front rail inside edge and this naturally lessens the uncomfortable pinching to which you refer. There is a slight radius, about 1/8 inch, to this edge just the same. The front rail leading edge has a special, supper comfortable, thumbnail edge created with a custom modified cutter.
As to the question of staples I have use ¼ inch narrow crown coated steel staples. If I find a source of SS staples for pneumatics I may give them a try but question if they are needed. There is no need for the staples to outlast the polypropylene.
As the people in Illinois all know. An ounce here, an ounce there, ptetty soon, you're talking real pounds.
Thanks Paul
– Last Updated: Nov-17-09 10:36 AM EST –
1/8" is still about...1/8" more than an Ed's seat is radiiused. The one I have sitting in my office has what is basically a sharp edge. Come on Ed's & Essex!
I agree with CEW's comment about the relative slow-drying properties of web vs cane, but I was simply not in the mood to lace another seat. I do have that option though, and may attempt to do so over the winter. BTW, someone suggested the cane lacing instructions on the Lee Valley website - they are very good.
Jim