MClmes: It was me who shared my “wooing” misadventure (though it was more a gesture of supportive friendship for a buddy having some rough times than a romantic overture.) We had been adventuring in sea kayaks but he had a yen for the classic canoe-like Adirondack boats (had helped build some at the Wooden Boat Shop that used to be in Norwalk, CT) and that fit perfectly with the cadence of Edward Lear’s classic poem “The Owl and the Pussycat” which I riffed on and illustrated. Adirondack boats are rowed, rather than paddled, as you can see from the pussycat’s paw position.
I do have a pack canoe I got maybe 3-4 years ago and love it but haven’t “switched”. It was the first composite boat I purchased but it’s a niche item. I never take it out when it’s windy or on big water as between the light weight, high freeboard and open top you are asking for trouble in wind and waves. On the other hand it’s a fantastic solution to all the small lakes and rivers near my house.
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It depends on whether you are talking about a pack canoe, paddled double blade with a low seat, or a traditional canoe paddled kneeling and single blade.
Learning to paddle single bladed correctly is a stroke that frankly my wrists don’t seem to much like at this point in my life. Plus there is the matter of a somewhat higher center of gravity even kneeling, and pressure on the tops of your feet and knees which my joints also like less than when I was younger. So while I can get a single bladed canoe around now unless the wind is up some, as I could in my younger days, I am not by any means a “good” canoeist in one. I can do rescues in one equipped with float bags and generally can make it back to where I started. I don’t try to guarantee much more than that in a single blade canoe.
But the pack canoes are a very easy transition for kayakers, like a kayak they frankly don’t require a lot of skill to get moving in some fashion because double blade is easier than single blade. And you can get them in nice light, easy to car top, models. And the seated position is similar, low center of gravity…
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Paddled canoes since 1963 and got a rec kayak in 1988 and quickly obtained a sea kayak after finding out rec kayaks and Long Island Sound crossings are not a good idea. Got a pack canoe in 2006. I still use all of them.
The classic Hornbecks are too wide to use a single blade in. Some of the newer designs are narrower at the gunwales so a single blade is very useful. I use a short 46 inch Fox Worx bent shaft in my RapidFire in the mangrove tunnels of the Everglades or in alder choked streams where double blades are most useful for snagging trees. I do think Hornbeck is now building with shouldered tumblehome to aid in single blading… Look for a tuck near the gunwales.
I do take my Rapid Fire ( a pack canoe) out on big lakes and gulfs. Superior and Mexico. I use a spray deck in those areas.
If single blading is hurting Celia take some lessons. A good J stroke doesn’t have to hurt unless there is some underlying condition. As in double blading a single blade is best played with gentle handling like a violin…
Kayaks canoes and pack canoes can be propelled either single or double blade. When sea kayaking my spare paddle is always a single…( that is the way I was mentored) and in a canoe my spare is always a double.
The classic J stroke correction requires a fair degree of ulnar deviation at the grip hand wrist joint which can be a problem for some, especially those with prior injuries limiting range of motion or significant arthritis. But you can go faster just paddling “hit and switch” and changing paddling sides every few strokes to keep the canoe going where you want. This is best done with a bent shaft paddle on the shorter side which makes it easier to clear the gunwales as you swing the paddle across.
You will get a little drip off the paddle switching but much less in my experience that you get off the shaft of a double-bladed paddle.
I’m mostly a sea kayaker, but picked up a solo canoe I think over a year ago already, and then a tandem canoe. We were out canoeing the past two weekends. I have found that boat balance is universal. Relaxing into secondary stability in a canoe, although happening from a different position(s), feels quite natural.
I’ve long been big on developing blade angle control with my sea kayak paddle. The single blade feels very natural to me. I would think blade angle control would come much easier with a canoe paddle than a kayak paddle because of the canoe paddle grip on one end vs a continuous shaft and second blade flailing up above, which feels quite awkward in comparison to the canoe paddle in my experience. I really enjoy the single blade.
It’s just a different, fun, satisfying paddling experience for me. It doesn’t satisfy everything I enjoy about sea kayaking. But I’m finding that this feeling could go both ways.
I have taken lessons. I have broken my left wrist, full colly (sp"?) fracture w/ what the docs all agreed was a remarkable level of recovery for managing to still get the rotation needed to play the violin.
My right wrist is showing more arthritis than in my younger days, they reluctantly use it for the DEXA scans because the left wrist that was broken is far harder to see.
There are things that are normal in a string player after enough decades that are an automatic underlying condition. For violin and viola players also a long term relationship with chiropractors and massage for neck and shoulders.
Pblanc calls it correctly, after a time the rotation becomes an issue. I am not going to give away what facility I do have there to do a Jstroke.
I happily do sit and switch, but the reality is that is slower than a good Jstroke.
No, done correctly switching sides is the fastest way to propel a canoe in anything other than heavy duty whitewater. All marathon canoe racers paddle sit and switch. If it wasn’t the fastest way to go they would do something else. Gene Jensen and Tom Estes proved this to the canoe racing world back in 1949.
But you have to become proficient with the switches.
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Not really “switched” but perhaps “boat-fluid”.
I started with kayaks, any type. Sea kayak first (day play and expeditions) followed by surfski, whitewater (creek, play, DR race), flatwater sprint. Did that for awhile and then had two multi-day trips in canoes, one was flatwater in fast tandems and the other trip was class III whitewater. Came home and excitedly told my wife that “we have to get a canoe!”.
No more WW kayaking, but in our current fleet we have three sea kayaks and five canoes. The canoes include a multi-use solo, a WW tripping canoe, WW play tandem, and his and hers WW solo canoes.
And the old joke works here, that of “why do I have 5 canoes? Because I sold one”. If I could have the funds and space I’d be adding a light tandem flatwater (the one I sold was too heavy), a solo outrigger, and maybe a fast flatwater solo.
We don’t kayak nearly as much compared to just 5 years ago. Partly due to losing paddling partners (we’re all getting older, and an amazing number of old paddling partners who used to paddle class IV/V, or go rock gardening, are now paddling SUP’s, or wasting time playing disc golf). But the major reason for doing more canoeing is age and overuse.
Unless I spend an appropriate amount of time building up specific strength, I’m no longer able to tolerate the sitting position in kayaks for very long. Yet I can get “off the couch” and paddle a canoe for hours on end. Doesn’t matter if I sit 'n switch or kneel, paddling a canoe doesn’t bother my lower back.
I would agree that there’s a possibility of wrist irritation from doing a lot of J-stroke, but also think it is just a statistical possibility. Getting hit by lighting as example. As a retired instructor, I do think that proper mechanics for paddling technique is actually not common, and improper mechanics are one cause of overuse injuries - can’t tell you how many experienced solo WW canoeist I’ve paddled with complain of soreness in the posterior shoulder, and I just want to tell them to re-learn how to move (rotate the torso, don’t let the elbow go past the sideline of the body!).
My opinion is that a pack canoe, sitting in the hull and using a double blade paddler won’t give you the options you seek when compared to kayaking - that’s just a kayak without a closed deck. Using a canoe with an elevated seat, you can sit or kneel. You can shift your weight to one gunwale, you can sit somewhat oblique towards your paddling side…in other words, lots of comfortable options.
As for speed, you might be surprised. A reasonably efficient solo canoe can be propelled fairly close in speed to a touring kayak when using the J-stroke. If using a bent shaft paddle and sit 'n switch, the difference can be come very small or negligible. I also think that the majority of kayakers don’t have very efficient stroke mechanics (a good forward stroke isn’t intuitive), and in comparison the bent shaft canoe paddle is a very efficient and economical stroke and easier to learn.
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@anon64780766
That is encouraging. When the BCU decided that all kayakers should also get a good canoe stroke - a decision which not surprisingly hurt them and they eventually had to abandon - I was fairly regularly informed by one expert or another than the Jstroke was faster.
I am more than happy to accept your take.
The biggest reason I do not canoe a lot these days is that a lot of my paddling is either solo on the ocean or with groups where my kayaks are far better platforms if I need to do a rescue. My canoe is an ultralight and I am loathe to add the weight of float bags that would make it more functional for rescues. It is fun for easy ponds though where I just want to get a float and not have a lot of prep.
Success in marathon racing is largely a result of a high stroke cadence and being able to maintain a high cadence over distance. So the paddle excursion of the forward stroke is kept much shorter than the forward stroke used by many recreational paddlers. The stroke ends before the paddle face passes behind the hip. That also makes the travel required for the recovery phase shorter and faster.
Most recreational paddlers using a J stroke will allow the paddle face to travel well behind the hip. The further back toward the stern the paddle face goes the less outward pressure is required for the correction phase. But allowing the paddle to drift that far back takes time and lengthens the recovery greatly reducing stroke cadence.
It is possible to do a “short” J stroke with a quick outward hook that occurs between the knee and the hip but it is not as relaxing to do so, or a pitch stroke in which no outward hook occurs but the paddle face is angled during the stroke to provide correction. But any “hook” or angling of the paddle face will reduce the effectiveness of the stroke for forward propulsion.
Before Gene Jensen and Tom Estes came along marathon racers used J strokes or pitch strokes to keep their boats going in a dead straight heading and eschewed any technique that caused the orientation of the canoe to waver from side to side as occurs paddling hit and switch. Until the boys from Minnesota came along and blew them out of the water.
I switch between canoe and kayak all the time. When by myself its kayak. When with others, mostly canoe. Also switch to a pontoon boat starting this time of year, will pick up paddling again when the weather cools.
Spot on analysis.
Although most of my paddlesport racing career was in kayak, I also did some marathon canoe races and a handful of outrigger canoe racing.
The efficiency of the bent shaft canoe paddle design and mechanics of use go beyond racing.
The majority of my canoe seat time in the last couple of decades has been multi-day trips on whitewater rivers. We always take bent shaft paddles, and in the slow or fast water sections between the major rapids that is what we use. The gain in cruising speed in relation to muscular strain just can’t be beat!
For multi-day trips in flatwater when there is miles to cover, being forced to use long straight canoe paddles is a form of wearing a hair shirt.
I was just about to post a thread about canoes vs. seakayaks when I saw this thread.
I’ve done multiday trips on Lake Powell twice. Once with a Swift seakayak and once with a Wenonah Voyageur canoe, with lowered seat, that I paddled with a kayak paddle. Both trips were a long time ago and I’ve forgotten some of my impressions.
I do remember feeling that the canoe was slower, which is natural, since the canoe is wider.
I encountered some big waves, generated by house boats, but nothing like you might find on open ocean. Wind was a bigger factor with the canoe too.
I spent time bailing out the canoe, even though I made a plywood top for over my legs.
I managed to get all my gear in the seakayak, but I remember it was a really, really tight squeeze.
Obviously I had a much easier time packing the canoe. I holds more and takes a lot less time to pack and unpack.
I think, in most situations, a canoe is easier to get in and out of.
I’m worried about getting trapped, if the seakayak flips. Not a problem with the canoe.
I’m trying to remember which I thought was more comfortable. I’ve been assuming the canoe was, because you are sitting higher and have room to move around, but I’m not sure I didn’t miss the back support of the seakayak. You can put a back on a canoe seat, but I haven’t.
I’m ordering another performance canoe, that I also intend to paddle with a kayak paddle.
I think, for me, a canoe is a better choice, but it depends on where you are using it.
Being “afraid of being trapped” in a sea kayak is a frequent fear of people who have never practiced a wet exit, or been unexpectedly dumped when out in one even before practicing. The reality is that gravity works even in water. The issue when you find yourself upside down in a kayak isn’t that you won’t get out but that you have to fight to stay inside it if you want to roll back up. Unless you have a really tight neoprene spray skirt that you have to forcibly yank off (which is why they have a grab loop on the front), in most cases you will naturally fall out of the kayak, sometimes before it is even completely inverted if you have a not-too-tight nylon sprayskirt that fastens under the coaming lip with bungee cord .
It takes some training and experience to react by “grabbing” the underside of the deck with your knees and thighs to fight gravity and stay in the boat if you know how to roll. Most popular modern kayaks have larger keyhole coamings than the old whitewater and earlier small cockpit sea kayaks. Some higher end sea kayaks still have smaller ones, but they can still be wet exited easily with practice. Whenever I have had kayaking instruction, the first exercise is always having us capsize the boat and then climb back in on the water. I have NEVER seen a student fail to simply fall out of the kayak or easily pop themselves out underwater if by some slim chance they stayed int the cockpit until it was upside down.
I’m 67 years old and have had open heart surgery and shoulder and elbow surgery. There is no way I’m going to learn how to do a roll. I tried to learn once and almost drown. I tried to learn to roll a whitewater canoe too. I managed to do a wet exit, from my seakayak, but only when I was wearing snorkeling goggles. I took a private lesson from a lady that studied with Bob Foote. I can’t swim, so I’m not that comfortable in the water. I’m a little concerned that just falling into cold water could trigger Afib. I’ve had problems with Afib. I want to stay in the boat. I don’t want to capsize in the first place. If I did flip and end up out of the boat, I’m inclined to think it would be easier to get back into a canoe, but I’m not sure. I do want to practice getting back in a canoe, in a safe environment. An SOT would be even easier, which is one of the reasons I was trying them.
I’ve paddled an awful lot of rivers and lakes and only capsized once, and that was my brothers fault, so maybe I shouldn’t worry so much.
I am a long time canoeist since 1960. I built a Pygmy Coho out of a kit of African mahogany. It was beautiful, it was fast, it was light and strong.
But I could not take my dogs, no place for a Coleman stove and too hard to load camping equipment. I went back to canoes and sold the kayak.
Same age here and have had similar heart issues n the past. Rolling is the quickest way to get out of a cold water environment. Summer is the time to learn & master it in open water conditions. Pools are great for initial learning and winter rolling skills maintenance and playing with learning new rolls.
If you are relying on shoulder and arm strength to roll, you are doing lots wrong. Too bad you never had rolling instructors to teach you that. Always dress for immersion (even if it is not intended as unexpected surprise swims happen).
Celia, IMO the canoe thing the BCU brought into the coaching scheme didn’t contribute to the demise of BCU presence in North America. Ultimately that diminishment was due to things like insurance, and that Paddlesport North America had to be independent of the BCU because the BCU is subsidized by their government.
As for that canoe “requirement”, in reality the requirement was about being able to demonstrate basic understanding of more than just one craft. Canoe was just the most obvious one, especially since flatwater sprint kayaks aren’t all that common! Although there was a preference of the coaches that understanding cause and effect in a solo canoe may be an ideal foundation for all paddlecraft.
There was push-back, and the results were interesting from my point of view. When the new requirements were put in effect, all North American BCU coaches had to update by re-taking the canoe component of the 2* skills assessment, and while a frequent comment heard from those coaches going in was that they were only attending training and assessment due to the requirements, the frequent comments after assessment ran more along lines such as “wow, I need to get a canoe!” and “let’s plane a coaches canoe trip!”.
The reason I know this is because in the western US at that time, for awhile there was only one BCU coach qualified to do these canoe updates - me! I was quite busy that spring!
Some of those coaches canoe trips did happen, and received an enthusiastic response.
The problem that came up wasn’t with the coaches but with the public. When students pursuing the BCU learning scheme were told that to pass the basic 2* assessment that they needed to show an understanding of cause and effect when paddling two distinctly different crafts, participation dropped. But for those that did pursue the new scheme I’m quite convinced that it not only hastened their learning of skill but also of paddling opportunities.
But in respect to your being instructed that the J-stroke is faster than switching, that might be because the BCU limited most canoeing to “traditional” skills. At BCU canoe clinics one might experience canoe sailing or canoe poling, but nary a bent shaft paddle was seen. Switching sides with a longer straight shaft is cumbersome compared to a good J-stroke, but short bent shaft paddles are a breeze.
At the trainings I ran, I brought poles, improvised sailing gear, traditional paddles…and bent shaft paddles and even solo whitewater canoes!
Regarding the solo WW canoe, quite fun to get a BCU instructor into it and 1) see if they could keep it going straight!, 2) for any BCU instructor who I knew to be skilled with Greenland style rolling, I gave them a simple instruction to start with a chest scull and finish with a storm roll…and they always rolled up easily (with a grin on their faces).
I would agree with all of your impressions. Although there are of course exceptions, the average solo canoe has a greater waterline beam than the average sea kayak so it will probably be a bit slower. Also you can maintain a bit higher stroke cadence with the double bladed paddle because the recovery phase only amounts to dipping the opposite paddle blade in the water as you finish your forward propulsion stroke.
There is no question that canoes in general are more adversely affected by winds. Most people find them more comfortable to be in for long periods because you can move around and depending on the set up of the outfitting may be able to transition from kneeling to sitting and vice versa without getting out of the boat.
Canoes are much easier to load and unload and most people find them more comfortable to portage any distance. On the other hand, a skilled kayaker in a SINK with a skirt can roll the boat back up and be completely dry. Also the double bladed paddle allows a good brace on both sides of the canoe. But I have known people who could never get past the psychological impact of being head down inside a kayak and never could learn to roll despite receiving excellent instruction from multiple top drawer instructors. And you are absolutely correct that immersion of the head and face in cold water can trigger cardiac tachyarrhythmias. A lot of times when you fall out of a canoe you never get your head wet.
I do know a number of whitewater open boaters who had to transition to kayak because they could no longer kneel. And I know a number of whitewater kayakers who had to take up open boating because of lower back issues.