Little Wing will succeed or fail by
being tried in challenging open water environments, and showing that it can handle them. Although a 12 foot touring kayak is a bit short for open water…
Little Wing Kayaks
Greyak asked some good questions and the last poster made a good point. I would love for a skilled paddler to test a Little Wing, preferably a LW 15.5 or 16 in challenging conditions and write an objective test report. From my limited experience with my LW 12.5 I tend to agree with the post that compared the LW to modern cooking vs primative methods. Being an early adpoter of the Apple McIntosh and the windows environment I think of traditional kayaks as being sort of DOS-based vs. the Little Wings being like windows machines. The Little Wings just do not require the same skill set to achieve relatively high performanc in rough sea conditions. I have been corresponding with Matt Broze, the person who does the hydrostatics for Sea Kayaker Magazine; the following is what I sent Matt a few days ago. I hope it helps answer some of the questions posed on this message board.
"Matt, I sure wish that Sea Kayaker could test a Little Wing. My LW 12.5 really does, as the builder claims, have an amazing combination of speed and stability (actually two kinds of stability as I will describe). I have paddled it three times in our local lake. Yesterday, the wind was about 15-20 mph and wind-driven and boat-wake waves were about 1-foot. I continue to find that my LW will cruise comfortably at about 3.9-4.0 mph and that I can push it to about 5.6 mph in a sprint - which are the same speeds that I get with my 16.5-foot Folbot Cooper. I find that resistance seems to increase at about 4.0 mph (3.5 knots), probably, as you caculated, due to the high prsmatic coefficient (Cp). The tracking still continues to feel ‘light’ - there is no V-hull, no ‘keel’, no hard chine to get a grip ont he water. It is not difficult to keep the boat on course, but you do have to pay attention to your paddle strokes. The really amazing thing to me is the boat’s stability, both in resistance to capsizing and its directional stability in rough water. It also has an very smooth ride in waves as I will describe below.
Resistance to capsize stability: It is hard to describe the stability of this kayak as anything other than phenomenal. I can sit in the boat in the middle of our lake that is filled with powerboats creating steep wakes with confused waves and totally relax; talk on my cell phone, have a snack, lie back on the stern deck, whatever. The transition from ‘primary’ to ‘secondardy’ stability is seamless; the kayak just seems to be stable, period. I soon forgot I was in a 21.5-in maximum beam kayak with a 19.5-in wetted beam and just relaxed as if in a fishing boat; stabilty simply is not a issue. I estimate that the thin seat puts my butt about 1/4 to 12 inch off the hull, so the low CG may contribute to the stability. This low paddling position presents no hindrance to my reaching the water with the paddle since the boat is narrowest (20-in) at the cockpit.
Tracking stability: While tracking in quiet water is ‘light’, the boat’s ability to be unfazed by waves and wind from any direction is amazing to me. It seems to maintain its directional stability as easily in rough and confused waters as in calm water. I am assuming that both kinds of stability are enhanced by the hull’s complex and smooth transitions which seem to absorb and deflect wave energy. The Little Wing seems to be ‘unflappable’ in any situation that I have encountered so far. I have paddled a folding boat for some years and they are supposed to be particulary good at absorbing and dissapating wave energy and staying on course, but the Little Wing seems as good in this regard.
Comfort: I have always tended to get excruciating back pain while paddling - often within about one-half hour, which is not good since paddling is my favorite activity. I have tried many fixes to seats in my kayaks with no sucess. I have paddled my LW for up to 2.5 hrs so far with absolutely no hint of back pain. The excellent Immersion Resarch Lounge back band may have a lot to do with my lack of pain, but the shape of the thin but confortable seat also must help. Another way in which this is one of the most confortable boats that I have paddled is the way it rides over chop and boat wakes. My Necky Gannet has a buoyant bow and handled chop well, but sort of slammed down hard after going over a wave (with lots of spray). My Cooper, with its low volume bow, punched though some waves, and other times the bow rode high out of the water on one wave, then slammed down and buried its bow in the next one with water washing over the bow up to the cockpit rim. The LW 12.5 just seems to float over the waves that I have encountered so far and has a very comfortable ride with little spray. I have yet to have a wave wash over the bow.
I see several downsides to the Litttle Wings:
- For normal touring conditions, even in some fairly rough water, a paddler does not need to develop the kinds of boat handing skills needed to avoid capsizing many narrow sea kayaks. I probably never will develop beyond and ‘intermediate’ skills paddler in this boat.
- I wish someone had explained me in plain language that carbon fiber kayaks ‘dent real easily’ so that I would have gotten the FG layup. In trying to decide between FG and Carbon (which Ted and Zac Warren seem to favor) I read a lot of information on the internet. It ususally said something like, 'carbon fiber is not the best material for kayak construction because of its “low impact resistance”. I did not intend to take my boat in rocky rivers, etc, so I figured that carbon would work well for me. The problem is that I have picked up four or five small dimple-like dents, most of which I have not a clue as to when or where the came from. I have one dent just from my paddle blade hitting the deck as I entered the boat. I am afraid that in a few years my boat wil come to resemble a large, yellow golf ball or a car that survived a major hail storm.
Otherwise, to me the Little Wings (at least the 12.5) are amazing boats, and really are sort of a ‘reinvention’ of the kayak. I am not saying LWs are ‘better’ than a skilled paddler in a, for example, a Greenland-style boat. Instead, they allow a less-skilled paddler (like me) to handled rough water conditions when necessary. The Greenland-style kayak has worked well for thousands of years, but early peoples could not construct or maybe even conceive of the complex hull shapes that computer design modern construction methods make possible. Maybe we should stop imitating and trying to improve upon primative designs. I think that Ted Warren’s greatest innovation was narrowing the cockpit area and pushing the volume out toward the ends to of the boat.
I would really like for Sea Kayaker to test a LW 15.5 as it is Warren’s most refined and sleekest design. It continues their more Swede form design that they started with the LW 12.5, and its beam at the cockpit is only 19.5 inches, but its longer length would be of interest to more paddlers. I am very interested in what highly skilled paddlers think of Little Wings, and how LWs handle surf conditions. Surely someone on the West Coast has a Little Wing that they would agree to have tested. Happy Easter, - Mike"
For some reason, Little Wings have not caught the interest of the sea kayaker community, nor have they been tested by the only comprehensive, detailed and objective authority - Sea Kayaker magazine.
Little Wings
Bill G. I see that you are the only person who responded that you had actually paddled a Little Wing. What were your impressions? Maybe it was too short a paddle in too mild conditions to form an opinion?
Little Wings
– Last Updated: Apr-13-09 11:04 PM EST –
Sorry, posted this twice.
Carbon outside should not make a
kayak “dimple” easily unless there is some kind of foam core layer underneath, or the layup is very “light,” that is, few layers of cloth or lighter cloth than usual.
Carbon will scratch more easily than S-glass or E-glass, but not to such a degree that most users of a touring kayak should have to be concerned.
Little Wings
To try to answer Greyak’s question about how Little Wings handle in rougher water than what I have encoutered so far in my inland lake I have taken the following from Billington Sea Kayak’s web site. Billington, located on the MA coast is a full service kayak dealer that carries all major brands (Current Designs, Eddyline, Epic, etc.) offers tours, etc. Their comments refer to their tests of the Warren LW 12.5 and 14-foot kayaks.
“2008… This is our 22nd year as a kayak and canoe shop. Every year it becomes more difficult trying to figure out which new model kayaks to carry in our already expansive line-up. It is tough at times to decide what model to promote and which of the models to let go or pass by. As best we can, the issue is approached from two perspectives; as paddlers ourselves and as a customer coming to our shop looking for accurate information, experience and honest recommendations.
New line for 2008
WARREN LIGHTCRAFT
Little Wing kayaks are built of either fiberglass using a marine foam core inner layer or, most common, carbon fiber using a marine foam core inner layer.
The day we tried these kayaks at our shop the wind was blowing 25-30 mph and there was a 2+ foot chop with whitecaps that were splashing over our docks. Great conditions to demo kayaks before deciding whether or not to add them to our lineup! Both models performed extremely well in those conditions. These kayaks offer strong stability and were easy to keep on course no matter whether the wind and waves were coming at us, from behind us, or directly on our side. The unusual hull design including an angled transom provides excellent stability, both initial and secondary, rough water capability, and speed. The workmanship is impeccable and the construction is well thought out. And, these kayaks are light…easy to carry and car-top them. These were the deciding factors for us…they’re now in our lineup! More often than not, the number of times one goes out kayaking is directly related to how much the kayak weighs and how much effort it takes get it to and from the water.”
This is pretty much my experience also, but in milder conditions.
Little Wings
g2d: That was my thought exactly. The foam core is supposed to make the boat stiffer, but it seems to easily dent. If you know more about this issue, through personal experience or otherwise, pleast put it in a post.
Flaw Design
I have never paddled it and never will because from a paddling point of view it is a flaw design.
To perform a powerful/strong forward stroke, you need a very narrow boat at the catch -the narrower, the better. However, this boat is quite wide at the catch -the widest.
Even though from the hydrodynamic point of view, the boat might be sound; it is not sound from a paddling/forward stroke one.
Not really
– Last Updated: Apr-14-09 11:56 AM EST –
It's no wider than most, and narrower than many. The LW12.5 has max beam 21.5" and is only 20" at the paddler - very narrow for such a small boat. The new model, LW15.5 has max beam of 21" and is 19.5" at the cockpit. This is narrower than 90% of touring boats, I would reckon. I don't think you can dismiss the boat based on the width.
PS Iceman I see you are a ski-guy/racer so very used to narrow boats - but the Little Wing is just a touring boat.
Wouldn’t say that I know “more” but
it’s pretty obvious that some kinds of foam reinforcement, under a stiff cloth and resin, would lead to dimpling or denting. If it happened to my boat, I would probably mix a batch of epoxy and microballoons and, after sanding and cleaning, fill in the dent. I would not worry about matching color… damage just makes a boat less likely to be stolen.
There ways Warren could make the hull less likely to dent. They could make the surface skin thicker and tougher by adding more carbon, or S-glass, but that would weigh more. They could use Spheretex as a stiffener. It is not pure foam, but is a mixture of glass fibers and microballoons that saturates with the resin used for layup. Spheretex is often used to stiffen key areas in whitewater slalom boats. I have a Spheretex reinforced boat, and it is very hard and stiff. But it will weigh more than the approach used by Warren.
Perhaps Warren were feeling so innovative that they outsmarted themselves in certain ways. But they did achieve a light, stiff result.
21" is huge at the catch!
That’s why I keep asking the OP the question how wide is his at the catch but I’m being ignored 
Anything above 18" at the catch feel too wide to me. And if you get used to 16" then 20"+ feels way too bulky. I think Pamlico 140 is probably just as narrow at the catch as this LW thing -
And again, talking not of the overall boat width - that can be as much as 24 in some areas, but the catch is where it counts for good efficient stroke.
Well, points for not being barges…
… but given your background I think you can see some hydrodynamic issues without needing to run the numbers or test paddle one.
Besides, commonly cited drag numbers (if we had them) would be off as many of the drag prediction software I’ve seen can’t process coke bottle shapes, and don’t do flow simulations at all anyway (how many who like to talk about this stuff have looked at what is actually in the math?).
Like I said, they’ll work fine for most - and given the beams on these will probably be faster than whatever they paddled before. That’s not saying much though.
The no/less skills needed angle is very troubling though. Totally clueless and irresponsible stuff for someone to post.
I’ve been trying to avoid getting into the comments about him paddling it THREE times on a lake! Given the lengthy review and numerous posts this guy has more keystrokes than paddle stroke with this kayak! Oh, and lets not forget the 5.6 mph sprint making it fast as what, a Folbot? Bow gurgle at 4? Yeah, real performance machine there…
Way over the top. Doesn’t pass the smell test. Reeks of planted stuff to get attention to these (seems to happen every spring just before ECC&CK). Maybe Warren (“we recommend the carbon” - no, really?) is giving price breaks to prolific marketers…
It is lighter and narrower than its likely competition (which is rec/crossover market, NOT sea kayaks), and that alone should get it a toe hold in a very large market segment of marginally fit mild water paddlers. Particularly with a smaller subset that has ample cash to burn and can baby them to avoid bruises, and have no desire to branch out and do other than they do now.
Rec paddlers who stay at same skill level and move to higher end rec boats seems odd to me, but makes sense in it’s own way. Could be a LOT of paddlers. Maybe the BS sells well to that crowd (with no means to really quantify it, why not? Just helps them sell themselves on it, as we see here). They get a lighter, “faster”, and likely more responsive kayak - so good for them.
Beyond that subset though, the hype only shoots it in the foot, er, I mean wing.
I did mention I like that this weird stuff is around, right? Vive La Différence! Points to the Warrens for that too.
Agreed
– Last Updated: Apr-14-09 1:45 PM EST –
I agree that hydrodynamic drag calcs for a weird boat shape like this will be suspect. I don't particularly believe them for sea kayaks either - well maybe to one significant digit. There is no flow simulation in the calcs, just coefficient massaging - they can't deal with hard/soft chines, boundary layers or any other real flow effects. The only numbers I put much stock in are the tow tank numbers from Sea Kayaker magazine. Even those are for static tows in quiescent water, which is probably too reductive to tell much about how a real sea kayak will behave in daily use in wind, waves, turbulence, etc.
Anyway, my point about width at catch is this: the Little Wing is not a Q700 or a surf ski. It's not even a big sea kayak. It's probably most fair to compare it to another high end rec/crossover boat, as you suggest, for example the Epic GPX.
The GPX is 12'11" with a 25" beam, anywhere from 25 to 37 pounds, $1500-$2500. From what I've read, this boat receives mostly universal praise for what it is meant to be, i.e. dead stable, agreeable to paddle, light weight. I don't hear any complaints about its high ticket price or width at catch, both of which look to be about the same as the LW12.5.
So what's the difference? Well the Little Wing does look dopey, and they are maybe overselling its attributes (what else is new). I think the animus is mostly due to its weird shape - and let's be truthful, almost nobody has paddled one. The Mariner Coaster was also considered an ugly duckling when introduced and is now considered a watershed design. So maybe the piling-on is a little premature - I want to paddle one (or test one) before I judge it.
Little Wings
Excellent point Cardelo. Although Warren makes LWs up to 18.5-feet in length, boats that I compare my LW 12.5 in my spreadsheet that I used to select the Lttle Wing are the Necky Manitou, the Epic Rec GP, and the Mariner Coaster, among others. The LW 12.5 is a rec/day touring kayak and should not be compared to a surf ski or an expedition kayak. However, I believe that the width at the catch of my LW is probably less than almost any other boat of similar length, and, at 5’3" tall and with short arms, that was a very important criterion to me. Maybe the poster that said the catch seems wide has long arms and the catch for him would be over the wing (the front wing is 21" at its widest point). I can assure you that the catch for me is at the 20" cockpit width, which seems quite reasonable for a 12.5-foot boat and my preferred high-angle stroke.
Just for the record, there are at least four reasons that I have been posting a lot about the Little Wings.
- I got the boat less than one month ago, and the wheather here in IL has been much better for typing than paddling (yes, at this time of year, more key strokes than paddle strokes).
2)There have been no tests of any Little Wing in magazines such as Sea Kayaker, so my test report on paddling.net is about the only semi-comprehensive one availble to most people.
- I would like to discuss the Little Wing with other LW owners that have more experience in rougher conditions than what I have encountered so far.
- I would like to get someone with greater skills and experience than me interested enough to paddle a Little Wing and do a comprehensive report.
I am not affliated in any way with Warren Light Craft; I have never met Ted or Zac, and have discussed the Little Wings with Matt Broze, of Mariner Coaster fame, about as much as I have with the Warrens. Matt ran some hydrostatic calculations on my boat as best he could given the unusual shape and limited data, and found that while it had more resistence than his Coaster at 3.5 and 4.0 knots, it had less resistence at 5+ knots, which is the pattern that I have observed as I paddled it. Matt was interested in how I liked the LW after paddling it, and I thought I would share my thoughts with others as well.
construction/loads
Thin skins over a core can give you a very light, stiff structure that’s great for the distributed loads it sees on the water, but has problems with the point loads it encounters on land. Damage tolerance and structural efficiency can be mutually exclusive.
Aircraft can be the same way – built to withstand tremendous air loads, but they’re very easy to damage on the ground.
Much appreciate the feedback!
– Last Updated: Apr-14-09 3:00 PM EST –
Actually I think there is a lot of good in the design - the reason I looked at your review when you posted it as well as trying to research a bit more about this design (most likely would not buy myself due to cost/fragility combination, but nevertheless it is a unique shape and worth a look, IMO).
To answer your question without obsessing about it -;) my point of reference for the catch width is my Perception Sonoma 13.5 It is of very similar proportions to your kayak: 13.5 feet long, probably a little under 13 feet waterline, about 22" at its widest above water point, more like 20" for you at the waterline (close to 21-22" for me as I am heavier), but that width is at the rear of the seat and only gets narrower from there to the front. I'd whish it were 15lb ligher to match the LW but, alas for $2,500 less I'll be happy to carry its 40lb on my shoulder -;)
You make a good assumption - at 6'4" I do have long hands and would likely be hitting the front wings with my paddle, where it would be probably 21" wide. The same area on the Sonoma for me is b/w 16 and 17" wide but on a "fish form" kayak it comes to about 18-20 on most 20-22" boats I've tried.
Coaster is purty!
Any “ugly duckling” qualities with the coaster was due to function over style (and so I find them fairly attractive actually). Any that don’t like the aesthetics are likely biased by PNW/Brit design entrenchment (and associated features many attribute performance to - and assume kayaks looking otherwise lack [much like pointless Brit vs QCC/Epic/etc. now]).
Benefits of the hull shape/design thinking/intent of the Mariner designs are evident even in photos. Claims were based on specific design intent, and verified in sea use it was designed for, nor marketing/sales based hyperbole backed up over 3 pond paddles…
Compare some Mariner marketing text:
(Coaster) “Hull Configuration and Features:
Swedeform–widest aft of center the opposite of Fish-form (for less wave-making resistance due to the finer angle of entry)
Shallow V-midsection with flared sides (for a narrower waterline and high secondary stability)
V’ed forebody (soft ride) develops into hard chines (resists broaching)
Little rocker at stern, substantial at bow (for tracking and maneuverability)
Extreme flare and reserve buoyancy at bow (resists pearling in surf)
Hard chine center and aft sections (carves turns and holds an edge in breakers)
Strong V-keel in stern quarter (resists broaching)
Lower rear deck (easier Eskimo rolls and reduced windage aft cuts weatherhelm)
Higher forebody (for more foot room–to size 12–and a dry cockpit)
Built in knee braces (for security and control)
Balanced wind/water couple at cruising speed (doesn’t weathercock)” - from Mariner website
See much hype there?
To be fair, the text on the “features” page of the Warren site is actually pretty reasonable too for marketing text. To their credit, they mainly talk about weight and weight related qualities, some construction details (even mentions the potential for dents), and some minimal and somewhat generic stuff about stability. Everyone claims speed/efficiency.
I suspect the Warrens know their market well enough and their message hits that target pretty squarely (as the happy customer here makes painfully clear). The lack of a lot of nautical/design/engineering jargon is telling, and smart. So, more points to them for that too. It’s ultimately the hardest part of the business.
Now, if they could only find a way to photograph them so they don’t look like giant clown shoes with 70’s era Detroit paint jobs! On a similar note, aircraft references/styling have always been used to impart some higher performance impressions to other things - and the “wings” gimmick reminds me of 50’s era marketing ploy of using “jet age” fins on cars (bet folks argued those made cars more stable too).
I also can’t help seeing a bit of the same reasoning behind selling “teen” products to younger kids, “young adult” products to teens, etc. Anyone in those markets knows you can’t sell “teen” products to teens (maybe to their parents, not to them). I suppose a portion of Rec market doesn’t want to feel they’re buying rec boats, and likes to feel they’re at a bit higher performance level.
On that score, no harm no foul. The weird win/win I mentioned earlier.
We all “buy the dream” to some extent (buying motivated by much more than functional/rational factors), and [while I’m making friends by not sugar coating my opinions in proper PC fashion] a large portion of “Sea Kayak” buyers are far worse in that regard! Certainly not immune myself…
BTW - Is it just me or are the rest viewing this thread seeing a lot more Warren Light Craft adds coming up… Creepy. Is Brent is using keyword/relevance tools to target the ads?
well…i had a thought about a month
back…
I just got a new job in Gloucester Mass, and moved to Beverly Mass…one town north of Salem where these things are made…
I am not certain what readers here would consider me level wise…but i have a history of enjoying 4-5’ seas off of Sakonnet Point in Tiverton RI…tidal rips coming into Narragansett Bay…and kayak surfing for hours on end…I teach for two kayak schools…have had more boats in my house than girlfriends…
and…i hope to test one out…let ya know what i feel from it…
maybe that will satiate some???
r
Little Wings
Corgimas,
You sound like just the person to really test paddle a Little Wing and file a credible report back to the group on this forum.
I agree with Greyak that the type of information on Warren’s web site seems geared a little toward the more casual recreational paddler compared to the the detailed information on boat features, boat design and hydrostatics on the Mariner web site and many other manufacturer’s sites. They do not seem to know how to market their kayaks to the sea kayaking community. As a result, I believe that they end up selling many of their boats to relatively inexperienced paddlers - certainly to paddlers who are not ‘plugged in’ to the sea kayaking community. I also believe that their Little Wings are very ‘seaworthy’ and capable of handling much rougher water conditions than most of their owners, including me so far, have used them.
By the way, their shop is located right on Salem harbor and they welcome anyone to come test paddle any time. If you are of average size, I would think that you would want to test paddle the LW 15.5 - their newest model that incorporates some features of my LW 12.5.
I will have my LW 12.5 at the Inland Sea Kayak Symposium in Washburn, WI this June; anyone who fits in the boat is welcome to a test paddle. I may get out to the WCSKS in Port Townsend again this September.
Bill G. Thoughts on Paddling the LW
First, I was being a bit of a devil’s advocate on my technology comment above. I have worked real hard the last year on developing my skills. Seriously. I am fortunate to have some good people/instructors who mentor me.
I paddled the Little Wing 14 and 18 at the ECCKF last year. I swapped back and forth between them and the Epics (16 and 18) several times. My g/f has an Epic that I have paddled about 20 miles maybe. (I love Epics).
First, conditions were real calm last year at the ECCKF. Well, a little bit of wind one day, when I did notice a bit of weathercocking with the LW18. I was not using the old school rudder. I don’t do rudders. Rudders are no substitue for skills (Greyak!).
I felt the LW was a little bit faster than the Epics but my g/f felt the opposite. So they were probably equal. This year, I think I will bring my GPS along to gather some data. I spun both LW’s around in tight circles pretty easy (using alternating sweep strokes). I was surprised the 18 turned so tight, so quickly.
As far as handing, I truly didn’t notice the sponsons (sp.) while I was paddling but I did observe that they were creating some resistance with the water (little waves). I’m pretty light (165lbs) so I was surpised. I also noticed a couple of instructors talking to each other with the LW’s (14 and 18) just sitting there edged all the way over.
Honestly the lake/pond at the ECCKF is not a great testing place (no waves, no following seas). But this year I have skills I didn’t have last year (edging for one) that should make for a better evaluation.
Keep in mind I paddle a WS Tempest 170 poly with more crevaces than Everest. So any light boat will have great acceleration compared to my Tempest.
Summary: The Little Wing actually felt quite “normal” in terms of turning and stability and generaly paddling. A quite quick normal.
The way I look at it, the design might be giving us something (increased stability in rough water and increased stability for self-rescues) without having to give something up (accleration, speed, turning ability/agility). It is very possible.
I am suprised the kayak community is so resistent to a “different” idea. Ok, a very expensive different idea. Blame it on the military who is gobbling up all the carbon fiber.
Now if we can figure out how to split the C and the O2 from atmospheric CO2 cheaply, we could all be paddling cheap carbon fiber kayaks! Think of all the dimples!
Even WS might figure out how to make a 35 pound Tempest 170!
Bill G.
Mt. Pleasant, SC