wrong log in
Just noticed that my laptop singed me in as my wife. The ‘Its complicated’ post is not hers but mine…
Open Water, Surf, and Rock Gardens
I guess when speaking of “Seaworhty” you mean open water sea kayak touring. I don’t have as much expriences as others here on truly open water, but I think you are looking for a compromise between speed and handling on open water.
In surf, or in tight spots like rock gardens, a shorter boat can be an assest. That is why the 13’ Mariner Coaster is such a favorite for that type boating here in NORCAL. Even the Tsunami X-1 is only 15" long. Dedicated surf boats are seldom more than 11-12’ long.
X-1 is 16’ x 20"
The more recent X-15 is shorter and wider at 14’ 6" x 24".
Even 16’ seems short to me - but I don’t play in the surf (much yet) and have no rock gardens here.
Now if only Tsunami would get back to me on my seat belt and rudder questions. I would like to play in what waves we do get here - and those are mostly in winter.
Tsunami Kayaks
– Last Updated: Jan-31-05 5:14 PM EST –
I stand corrected. I was thinking of the X-15 Scamjet. If you ever hear from them let me know. They don't return my phone calls or emails.
A got one phone message…
… after sending a couple emails and leaving a couple messages on their machine.
They had been out of area a few weeks - and then in the middle of a move. Jim said he would “check stock and get back to me in a week.” That was two weeks ago.
Another hobby business?
I sort of assume the belt for the X-1 is the same as they still use on the others. They don’t know if they have any? At this point I’d settle for decent pictures. Given the unique side attachment points in the cockpit I’d like a reference before making my own.
longer is relative
I too wonder why longer boats are often are advised for the so
called sea kayaking. First because I always wonder longer than what?
When looking at the waterline of most sea kayaks, they are in fact a
lot shorter than an Olympic racing K-1 and fast-touring kayaks. Second,
I wonder WHY longer is preferred? The only advantage that I see is
that more length is a benefit for more capacity and stability with
good streamline, so in general you could say the more you take, the
longer your boat should be?
Length and speed.
I’m planning on upgrading to a longer kayak myself (I currently own a Dagger Catalyst 12.8). I do most of my paddling on fairly large lakes, so I just figured that I would be better off with a sea/touring kayak. (I really don’t need to haul a bunch of stuff.) I’m just looking for stability, tracking and speed. Mostly speed, because my Dagger is stable enough and tracks well (for my needs).
From what I have read, longer (and somewhat narrower) kayaks are faster (easier to paddle). Isn’t there a direct relationship between length and speed? I mean, isn’t your so called maximum speed determined by the waterline length of the boat? (I do realize that there are other factors, like hull shape, stiffness, and smoothness.)
~ Arwen ~
faster is not necessarily easier
a long boat may have greater speed potential and be harder to paddle at a slower speed because it would have more wetted surface (drag) than a similar, shorter boat
Seaworthy… A relative thing
– Last Updated: Feb-01-05 2:41 PM EST –
Lots of great responses.
X15 gave a great synopsis.
Lowbrace brings up valid points about bulkheads. This adds watertight integrity and flotation.
Celia talks about stability.
etc.
We need to remember that seaworthy is a relative expression and what we consider to be seaworthy is going to be a personal thing in small craft contingent on what we do with the boat.
The vast majority of kayaks and canoes we paddle today are based on craft used for coastal tripping (canoes) and iceberg hopping for seals, walrus and bears (kayaks). They gave the designer carrying capacity that could go from the lake up a shallow stream (canoes) and short term protection from the water temps while hunting and fishing (kayaks). Neither was meant to be seaworthy. Both were meant to get you back on dry land safely and quickly if things got ugly out there. Remembering this when we start talking about seaworthiness for these basic designs will help keep things in perspective.
We push the envelope of course, and this makes seaworthiness a great topic but I am the sort that likes to keep things in perspective. These are small craft. Not meant to be out in bad weather. If a given individual has the wherewithal to risk the elements then it should be his or her privlige to do so and that person will want something with water tight integrity for safety and recovery, hull length for what relative speed he or she can get out of the boat if they do need to make for the shore or manage waves, and structural integrity for the incredible amount of stress waves and wind can apply to a hull.
If we just gotta have a paddle-craft thats "seaworthy", there are some designs that we can and do still use today, the outrigger type of rafts and dugouts of our polynesion, asian and Indian ancestory. A stout open or decked canoe (or kanu) with a crab claw sail and one or two outriggers made with today's composites and sail material could truly be used (and are) for serious open water like island hopping races, land or shore truly over the horizon... These boats give a stable platform, even if inverted for a place to get back out of the water if you capsize (an essential element in seaworthiness), they have speed, they paddle well, and they are proven designs for seaworthy use.
It's all fun to talk about.
Great thread.
But one thing kayaks have going for
them, unlike most other seaworthy craft, is that they can launch and land through significant surf. Some of the mid-sized sailing outrigger canoes are extremely cool for big water, but a lot more of a bear to handle in close and on the beach. OTOH, most of us aren’t going to spend the night at sea in a kayak, which limits the range a lot.
bigger is better stable
The Queen Mary II is over 800 feet long and can take 50 foot seas.
My boat is about 17 feet and I would never take it in 50 foot seas.
Yeah,
it’s all relative.
how big was the titanic?
robert manry sailed across the atlantic in a 14’ boat, not a stunt but thats the boat he had. phil bolger argues that small boats can be more seaworthy because of reduced stress and more simplicity-fewer systems to fail. the statement that kayaks cant spend the night at sea raises an interesting question- what is the minimal seaworthy boat-i think of the term ‘vessel’- that can safely keep to sea? could you sleep on the floor of a kruger with a drogue, are there options?
Kruger with a drogue
would probably be a good example of a seaworthy (albeit risky) minimalist approach for a night at sea, given that the Kruger had flotation to match or exceed it’s load even if the cockpit was flooded during the night.
There have been some seaworthy small craft. Stephen Ladds 12 footer “Squeak” comes to mind as well.
A great write up was done regarding seaworthiness and what constitutes it by Don Elliott based on Stephen Ladds capsize off the Columbian coast.
I wish I could still find it on the web for this group.
yep
Titanic='s 880 feet.
Also Hans Lindemann crossed the Atlantic in a Klepper kayak in the 50’s and followed that epic up the following year with a crossing of the same ocean in an african dugout canoe.
Verlen told me he spent a 17 day period in his boat when he could not find land due to flood waters on the Amazon. That ment sleeping in, cooking, eating, pooping all from the boat.
Ive slept in my Kruger plenty of room. Now since they can be catamarand together this can make them easily handle 15 foot rough seas i would think. Verlen and Valerie were catamarand together when they were hit by a hurricane off Burmuda in the early eighys during their 21,000 mile trip. I personally think they are a bit squarrley in realy rough water even though they probably were far from upsetting. They sit higher in the water than a sea yak too. The question is very vague since we could be talking about 100 different water conditions, and a thousand boat designs and probably the same in abilities.
PS. The titanic sunk!
Response to longer is always better
When speaking of ships and length being more seaworthy it is important not to talk in absolutes. Huge ships experience metal fatigue and some break apart. Hulls that span several wave crests / troughs have to flex to abosorb that energy. We lose on average one container ship a week around the globe. Read the book “Tankers Full of Trouble”. Now lets look at rescue ships. Find me one that is 800 ft. long! They arent. The vessels responsible for enduring the nastiest seas on earth are nowhere near the longest. Case in point the 52 ft. MLB’s, or even the newer 47 MLB’s (Motor Life Boats) Long sea touring boats are best in flat to moderate seas. A Mariner Coaster will blow a Current Designs Extreme away in 10 ft. confused seas. I think both boats are fine, and use them as examples only. I’ve paddled many sea kayaks including many Brit boats etc in all sorts of water. In big nast stuff I’ll take the shorter boats.
Can’t Paddle at Night, etc.
From some of the responses above it sounds like many folks have not heard of Ed Gillet.
Here’s a link to his story …
http://www.oceanplanet.com.au/gilletarticle.htm
For handling very rough conditions and surviving I think I would actually go with smaller boats. I feel a lot more secure in a 9’ boat than in a seakayak. A lot of people would turn up their noses but an Ocean Kayak Frenzy or a Necky Jive can handle pretty violent conditions. Someone told me that the Frenzy was patterned after an airforce experiment for a survival boat , but I’m not sure that is true.
Exception kind of proves the rule?
Actually, I was thinking of him when I said “not many of us” are going to spend the night at sea. It’s amazing what some people are able to accomplish, but most of us aren’t going to emulate those few.
Long and short in rough water
I don’t necessarily disagree with the general point (not nearly enough experience to anyway), but surfskis are raced and win across a broad range of conditions. I’d guess that with comparable paddlers, the ski would be faster than a shorter (16’, give or take) sea kayak in pretty much anything, with the possible exception of big head seas and strong wind in the bow quarters (where you’re having to wrestle the bow back into the wind on every wave). Thoughts?
another perspective: on making way
sometimes seaworthy means staying upright. sometimes it means making way to get to a sheltered place.