The Tupper looks interesting.
Thanks for that link.
“Mad River
Has produced more boats then all the other companies combined” It would be interesting to see those numbers. Not doubting you but it would be interesting.
Tupper does look interesting
A 23" waterline beam in a canoe? Low seat for stability. Almost looks like a deckless kayak. The boundaries are getting fuzzy!
Polyethelene
I don’t know any specifics on the tt except that it is polyethelene.
I would expect it to stand up quite well.
The problem with poly hulls is that nothing sticks very well to them so it’s difficult to install float bags and thigh straps or anything else that will get pulled hard on.
That’s not a Mad River issue. It’s the same for the Old Town Dicovery’s and any other poly hull.
Tommy
Here’s MY Opinion
I have owned 5 Mad Rivers, 3 Vermont versions (Revelation, Monarch, 16’ Explorer) and 3 since Confluence bought them out (St. Croix, 14TT, 15’ Royalex Explorer).
All 3 from Vermont were finished impeccably. Of the Confluence canoes, the first was warped a bit (Poly) but useable. There were several “Burrs” on the gunnels, but the boat was o.k. and got 3 years paddling out of it before I sold it. 2nd Confluence Mad River had no warping and no noticeable flaws.
The 3rd, my 15’ Explorer that I bought this year, has a few that I didn’t notice in the shop. The decks are cut unevenly (I can take a picture if anyone doesn’t believe it) and the gunnels had many little nicks, fixed easily with a bit of sanding. Also found a deep nick inside the hull underneath the stern seat when I replaced the stock seat with a contoured seat. Nothing major, but all little flaws I wish I had noticed earlier and then I wouldn’t have been as dissapointed when I DID find them. I haven’t told the dealer yet as the dealer is 4 hours away and he gave me a great deal anyway. These flaws WILL influence my decision in the future.
I really like the shallow v hull in Mad River Canoes and very few manufacturers use this design. That’s why I stuck with Mad River when buying a new tandem royalex boat this spring.
But, AS SOMEONE WHO HAS OWNED AND PADDLED MAD RIVERS FOR OVER 20 YEARS, the quality has definetely deteriorated since the buyout.
And, as a wise man once said, “That’s all I have to say about that” (LOL)! WW
In a nutshell,
– Last Updated: Jul-16-07 12:17 PM EST –
when you have enough people unhappy with one company to generate the number of posts we see on this forum about it and the number of people who chime in with additional peaves and tales of woe, there must be something wrong down at Mad River.
Is it just bad customer service or have they destroyed MR's line and filled it with junk?
From my experience, it seems like bad customer service that starts right at HQ. They still make some nice boats and and they make boats to be sold at a price point because everybody can't afford a $1200 canoe or their usage does not justify the price. Its not an uncommon practice. If you have a knowledgable and helpful dealer in your area who will take care of you and go to bat if you do have a problem. Go for it.
For those who feel that the quality has deteriorated, you may be right, but look around at the competition and you will see similar cutbacks in materials and workmanship in the name of keeping costs down. This is not completely due to greed or the need to be more profitable, but also to keeping retail pricing in a range where buyers are comfortable. I hazard to think what a boat from 20 years ago would cost today if it was made exactly the same as it was then, but I bet I could not afford it.
If this forum was around when the then Johnson Wax company bought Old Town, we probably would have heard the same things. They, however were smart enough not to move the factory and loose all the experienced people, but they did ruffle some feathers at the time.
HeHeHe
Never was very good at math, 3+3=6, not five (LOL)!
about the poly boats
I didn’t know that, so are there any adhesives out there thay do work well with the polyethylene boats?
Promises, promises, but every new
glue promised to stick well to poly has turned out to be a disappointment. If you buy a poly boat, you should plan on devising an outfitting system that pins things between the gunwales and the bottom, without glue.
thanks good to know
are there any adhesives/glues that can damage the hull material poly or royalex?
Just my opinion…
I have a wood trimmed, Mad River Guide, made in Vermont. One of my favorite canoes, and I’ve owned more than a few, including a Mad River Freedom Solo.
I wouldn’t trade my Vermont made Guide for two, brand new, Mad River Freedom Solos. Lots of Freedom Solos, and more to come. Vermont made Guides are getting few & far between.
BOB
…let’s not mention how your friend…
slapped the objects that he applied contact cement to together before allowing the corroding agent to dry off…which essentially Eats Royalex.
Mad River Delaminations
The boats I’ve seen were not worn. The vinyl seemed to separate from the underlying ABS leaving large blisters. I’ve heard that Mad River replaced at least two of those boats.
Again I’ve only heard of this on Mad River whitewater boats, Outrages and Outrage X’s.
Tommy
One more Issue with Mad River
Mad River has a lot of classic designs and I’d hate to see them gone.
But I have not seen any new designs of interest to canoesters in quite a few years.
The NewSynergy may be selling like cigarettes but to canoesters it’s a joke. Not a very funny one either.
I’d sure like to see Mad River live up to to it’s heritage of innovative canoe design. Yeah Jim Henry’s shoes are big ones to fill.
I can only hope.
Tommy
a couple of brilliant statements here
not sure what’s happening at MR but undoubtedly, something negative has occurred since the change. and good points made by the bloke about problems with all companies, this is very true.
however, i’d just like to comment on these 2 quotes found in above postings…
"
From my experience, it seems like bad customer service that starts right at HQ. "
and
“not much into boats”
DAM STRAIGHT!! the paddlesport industry is a passion business, and it is so freaking clear when you are dealing with a company/store/outfitter, etc, who is actually into paddling, and i can sniff out the pretenders immediately.
sadly the juggernauts that own much of the paddling industry these days are just these types, and yes indeed, a bad customer service attitude does come DIRECTLY from the top. i’ve seen it up close and personal in past employment, and it’s ugly. support small passionate paddlesports businesses!
For clarity
Early on in this thread I made some comments regarding Confluence and Mad River. I stand behind everything I said. As this thread loses steam and heads off to the archives I would like to make a couple of points unambiguous for the record:
I did not say that anyone at Confluence/Mad River was “evil”. It seems that it was inferred by someone that I had said that – I most certainly did not. I am of the opinion that some of their marketing scams for the formerly well respected Mad River brand name are disreputable, but to call them “evil’ would be quite a stretch.
I also did not in any way mean to imply that folks who are unfortunate enough to get suckered into purchasing a Confluence/Mad River cross-over ‘can-yak’ are deserving of ridicule. They would have my sincerest sympathy for falling for the marketing hype, but I wouldn’t mock them. The inference seemed to be that I was somehow elitist calling those cheesy things “floating objects”. I stand behind that assessment.
My earlier post is above near the beginning of this thread. Please note that it has not been edited. - Randall
I’m glad this thread turned out well
it had the potential to downgrade into finger pointing and gnashing of teeth, but has remained civil and informative. I just spent about a half hour rereading all the comments, and exploring the Mad River Canoe web site, and I, too, am disappointed that such a fine company reputation that was hard won by the Henry’s has deteriorated so badly. It took the Henry’s 30 years to win their reputation, and it took Confluence Watersports less than 5 years to undo that effort. Shame on Confluence Watersports.
Incidentally, another fine company that spent 30 years building a reputation for innovative and quality paddlign gear has disappeared under the Confluence Watersports management. Voyageur-Gear is no more. Sigh.
Thanks
Andy
Old thread re: old vs. new Explorers
If one is looking for an older (made in VT) Mad River Explorer 16Rx, what to look for? What identifying features?
Were all of the pre-2001 Explorer’s outfitted with wood gunnels?
Are the black vinyl gunnels indicative of post 2001?
Is there any difference in the labeling/logo?
thanks guys.
Vermont Canoe Company seems dead…
Following up on this old thread as I am in the market for an older Mad River Explorer.
I guess Jim’s ex-wife Kay and some former Mad River employees started Vermont Canoe Company here in Waitsfield VT.
I visited the website, which is running. The website highlights the Encore, which looks like it’s based on the Explorer specs, in fiberglass or Kevlar. the list of dealers turns up dead ends. None of them stock VT Canoe Company boats. Email to info@vermontcanoe is returned/undeliverable.
Seems they might have folded?
I’ve owned an Explorer 14 TT and now a 1997 Tahoe RX. IMO, they are garbage. I love my Wenonah! The “Mad” in Mad River is how you feel after a day of paddling these oil-canning pieces of junk. My biggest complaints are the easy oil-canning and the flimsy seat hangers. A friend loves the kevlar Mad River canoes, but I don’t have any experience with that layup. I’ve owned 20+ canoes in order to test drive them to find what I like. I always seem to have a good float when I’m in a Wenonah (I currently own four of them. Two are racers though, which aren’t quite as enjoyable…haha.). If you’re in Virginia or close by, you can go to the Appomattox River Company demo day in early June (June 10th this year). That can give you an opportunity to try out different designs and figure out what you like the most.