Are some hull designs better than others for cowboy scrambles

Yes. As Kayakhank said, you have to learn the sweet spot for each kayak. But I think it has more to do with deck design than hull design.

I needed to go well in back of the cockpit to sink the kayaks down low enough. After getting the initial lunge done, I faced forward with a leg on each side and scootched forward, keeping my head and body low. Then plopped my butt in the seat. It was always called cowboy, not cowgirl, whenever I heard the term.

Try both ways and do what works best for you.

I could never sink the stern of a sea kayak down enough coming directly in back. Plus the narrow stern was very tippy when trying that! I could remount from the stern of my little WW kayak and the old Prijon Twister I used to own.

With the surf ski, I follow Oscar C’s method, EXCEPT when I roll over I get one leg in the bucket immediately. Stable enough in flat water that no sculling/paddling is necessary while bringing the other leg in. This is probably easier for small, lightweight people to do than big people.

I also have a Chatham 17 and I find getting on top is super easy for me, but shimming up to the cockpit is tricky in any waves at all, and then trying to get into the cockpit is where I usually tip back over if I am going to (more often then I’d like to admit. )

I did that this very morning. I got TO the cockpit 3 times without a lot of problem— and 3 times I capsized before I could get back in. I did get in on the 4th try.

Using a paddle float I can do it every time with waves up to about 18" but I have not tried in anything taller then 18" so far.

I use the paddle float to brace with and keep my weight leaning towards it which makes the reentry very fast and very easy, but it’s been pointed out to me by others, getting back in FAST is vital in very cold water. I am not very fast yet, considering the time it takes to place the float on the paddle, blow it up and secure the paddle to the rear deck. All that probably takes me a minute of more. The actual reentry is fast once I am ready to use the paddle and float, but getting it all ready to use takes me at least a full minute and maybe a bit more. If the water was in the low 50s or 40s Fahrenheit I wonder if I could able to reenter after 1 to1-1/2 minutes in it. I don’t want to try it but I am thinking I may have to.

Sound like testing a high voltage electric fence by licking it to me. NOT looking forward to it at all.

So far all the water I have been in doing my self rescues in has been fairly warm, but I can see the point of the more advanced paddlers when they tell me rigging a paddle float may take too much time in very cold water.

I need to keep trying to get the hang of reentry without the paddle float I think. On a scale of 1-10 I think I am at about a 3 right now. The ONLY easy part for me is getting back on the kayak, (overlapping the rear edge of the rear hatch) but as soon as I start back towards the cockpit things get harder and harder for me.

cowperson

I don’t see how either of the re-entries in the video work, why doesn’t the boat just roll towards the person?

I do see how a paddle float would prevent that.

Is it jus a matter of practice, getting it just right?

It is a matter of not pulling yourself “up” onto the kayak deck, but rather sliding yourself over the kayak and pulling the kayak under you. Here is a good demo video, with subtitles explaining, and drills to help you:

(61) NORTHSEAKAYAK - The Self Rescue Training Drill - YouTube

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The slide onto the deck is a swimming-pool-exit lunge crux move. You have to kick both feet to help propel your body up and forward. If you try to pull yourself UPward only, the boat tips you right back into the drink. It does require decent strength and minimal bulk in the front of the body; easier to do without a PFD on, so think twice about using PFDs with massive amounts of foam in front.

Best way to understand this is to learn to DO IT YOURSELF. Videos are helpful but don’t show the sometimes-complex timing of actions involved.

Paddle floats slow everything down.

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MAN…That guys sure makes it all look so easy. It’s not easy for a newbie, but as we see, it can be learned and so we just need to take the time it takes to get good at it. (Like I am sure he did)

I AM a newbie and my reentries are not easy or graceful. (yet)

I can get on the read deck of my Chatham very easily but as soon as I am on top things start to get tricky for me.

I don’t pull myself up at all. I do a “push-up” and shove the stern down into the water. Then by allowing my arms to collapse backwards the boat simply slides under me . When I stop and my navel is centered on the deck and I can do that very quickly and very easily.

My challenges are “everything else”.

One of the hardest things for me to do is to dump out the water as you see him do. In fact I can’t get much out at all.
I have no dry suit and so I don’t float out of the water very high. In my wet suit top (2MM) and my wet suit pants (7MM) with my PFD I still float with only my head out of the water so in calm water my chin is about 1" out. Without my wet-suit and my PFDI am as buoyant as a brick. Many other paddlers have dry-suits and they float a lot higher in the water, but a dry suit is well beyond my reach financially now, and will be for some time. With my wet-suit and PFD if I push up on the bow of the upside down kayak I simply shove myself under water about 2 feet and the boat comes up about 3" No water drains out at all.

One trick I use sometimes is to blow up my paddle float first and hold it under one arm and shove the kayak up with the other arm. I can get it up about a foot doing that, but my control is poor because without the 2nd arm and hand the bow squirms a lot and I often can’t get water out of the cockpit and keep it out. I have to get most of it out and THEN grab the bow with the other hand and try to flip it, but as soon as I let the float go by raising that arm the kayak comes back down and I get more water back inside. It’s better then when I started, but not what you’d call good. Doing that drill I get maybe 1/2 of the water out. I NEED a bilge pump after EVERY drill. A bailing bucket is better, but in my Chatham17 there is no good place to carry one of any size large enough to be better then the pump.
I am waiting on a 5MM thick vest and that extra buoyancy is going to be helpful I am sure, but I’ll need to use it to see how helpful. The vest is only about $76 so I can afford that. But it’s not here yet.

I have done drills in shallow water so I can stand on the bottom and dump all the water out. When I do that the rest is easier, but still far from easy for me.
I often get dumped in my attempts to get back in the cockpit. In waves I sometimes get dumped even as I am sliding up toward the cockpit. I am still working on the skills. Not making fast progress, but I am making some.

When I feel tired I usually cheat and get the paddle float on the paddle and get back in with it. That is easy. But it takes a lot of time compared to those that are doing this drill and have the skills, like that guy in the vid above.
From the time of their wet exit to the time they are back in is often 20-25 seconds including the time taken to empty the boat (as that guy in the video did.) For me, if I don’t empty the cockpit first I can be in the boat in about 90 seconds using the float . Then it takes me 4-5 minutes to get all the water out with a pump.

If I inflate my paddle float first and use it to help me empty some of the water as I described above, I can add at least 1 more minute in the water and maybe 2. Even then I still need 2-3 minutes to empty my cockpit after I am back in because my best efforts to empty a boat in water deeper then I can stand in still leaves my cockpit about 1/3 full.

In the real world I would be dumped only in high waves and trying to pump out the water and not get dumped again is questionable because when pumping I can’t use the paddle, and I also can’t have the spray skirt on completely.

I has me giving some thought to an electric pump.

I’ve been paddling for well over 3 decades and much of what you said describes my experience with the Chatham as well. I could never generate much lift to get it out of the water, and upside down, to drain water. I too tried holding the paddle with float under my arm to help. I got some out, but it was never as easy looking or effective as the guy in the video. I don’t know about that boat (was it a Cetus), but some boats have the bulkhead right up against the rear of the coaming (and angled), so that the water comes out more easily (so I am told - I have not had such a boat). It might help to cut some foam to wedge into that spot (in between the back band and the coaming), or maybe get another inexpensive paddle float, put it back there and inflate so that it fills up the space. Then again, it might not help. It’s an empirical question.

Also, you had mentioned earlier that you find the buoyancy of the paddle float a great aid to successful re-entry but you aren’t happy with the time it adds to your re-boarding efforts. A Greenland paddle has some nice inherent buoyancy (not nearly as much as a paddle float) that can help a bit in combination with improving balance that comes with practice.

Finally, as I’m sure you know, having someone who knows what they are doing, like an experienced instructor, watch you to provide feedback is invaluable.

While I have not tried that deep water dump by lifting the bow while I am floating, it looks to me like he is sculling his paddle to generate more lift than just floating. Look carefully behind the text at that point. He carefully places the paddle on his shoulder, and then you can just see his hand moving and the turbulence from his sculling paddle.

And, you can see that as he lifts and reaches the highest point, he lets the kayak fall out of his hand, so he is not trying to hold it and keep it form twisting except as he lifts it.

Even knowing those subtleties, it is an impressive feat, and I am sure requires some practice before reaching his skill level.

Monkeyhead, funny you’d mention a Greenland paddle. I am putting the finish on one right now.

It’s 8 feet long and a bit wider in the blades then most. The widest part of the blades are 4.7" and the thickness at the center is 1/2". I used it before I did finish work on it, and found it too thick so I slimmed it down and I rounded the tips more. I used it a 2nd time and loved it. So I brought it home and did the finish work. I hope to have it in the water in about 4 days.

Because it’s long with a shorter loom (19") and had blades about 1.25 wider then most other GL paddles. So the blades have 5/8" more per side to grab more water and are long and somewhat thin in cross section. The few extra inches in length helps me too. Over size, I can always cut it down and slim it down if I find I left it too long or too wide. So far I love it.
Bracing, sculling and all turns with it are very easy and I seem to give up nothing at all to the 8 foot spoon blade paddle I have been using. In fact it’s better for all those things.
In speed it’s very close to the same as my spoon blade, and as I get better in my technique I may find it as good or better for covering miles too. And yes, it does float very well so for using it as an outrigger for reentries it’s a bit easier too. It’s a bit heavy and so I will have to see if I made it too big, but I looked at the old ones shown on line in museums, and it’s the same size and weight as many of them, so I can’t see how it can be too heavy if the old artic folks in Greenland and in the Aleutian islands did just fine with them. I hope I don’t have to eat those words later. Time will tell, but I bet it won’t take much time.

I also regret the lack of a mentor around here. But that’s something I have no control over at all. I tried to call 3 of them, the of the 3 I found listed in the whole state of Wyoming. 1 is too busy. 1 didn’t ever answer the phone and never returned my call. (4 attempts) The last one said she’s talk to me on the phone but only if I paid her $150 an hour by credit card to do it. Now maybe she might be worth $150 an hour, but there is no way to know that without paying it first, and I am not wealthy enough to pay those kind of fees. So I can only say she’s too good for me and leave her alone.

I am 100% on my own, other then the internet and You-Tube.

Still I am making progress and I am enjoying the new things I am told, shown and what I teach myself from the videos e-mails and phone calls with paddlers in several other states and one in Canada. I get on the water at least 6 days out of every week and on the weekends I am on the lake for no less then 8 hours on Saturdays and no less then 6 hours on Sundays. A long Saturday is 12-13 hours and a long Sunday is 8 hours. I have only 4 months behind me as of now, but in those 4 months I have spent a lot of hours doing things I see on line and working on my skills every day. I enjoy it a great deal. I can’t express my gratitude enough to those that have reached out to help. Those that criticize and tell me to stop are easy to ignore.

Gregofdelaware I will go look at it again. I never thought of trying to scull as I lift. That’s a good pointer.
Thanks!

Yes he is sculling with the paddle THAT"s The SECRET! I AM SURE!
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POINTING THAT OUT!
I will go try that tomorrow morning.

Generally speaking, I find that if there is any difference at all, it is with respect to acceleration rather than speed.

Also, speaking for myself, I exert myself at the same comfortable level irrespective of the paddle I’m using and that exertion level is primarily a function of the boats resistance as it moves through the water. In a boat with more hull resistance, that exertion level will give me less speed. In the same boat with a different paddle, I believe I adjust my stroke rate up or down so as to have the same exertion level which mostly boils down to how much exertion is required to drive the boat through the water. So it’s kind of like an equation where exertion/hull resistance = speed, where exertion is a constant. If I were using a different paddle that provided less propulsive force, my speed would slow which in turn would lead to a decrease in exertion since that seems to me to be primarily a function of the boats resistance as it moves through the water at a given speed, which in turn would lead me to increase my exertion (strokes/minute) until I achieved the same speed as with the other paddle.

Also, on another topic, your paddle’s weight can vary considerably with the type of wood used. I (and lots of other people) always use western red cedar which is very light.

Thank you for your attention to the details Monkeyhead. Details are NEVER boring to me. I am ravenous for good information.

I also keep my level of exertion at a level that keeps things fun but not fatiguing. On my own personal “scale of 1 to 10” I paddle at around 7-8 for the most part. After I go for a few hours I drop back to about a 6 for a while and them go back up to the level of 8. I vary my cadence and sometimes my strokes to keep from getting too tired from non-relenting repetition.

I have only 3 different kayaks I am paddling now. My Chatham 17, a 1986 Pyranha Everest 390 and an Old Town loon 106.

The Loon 106 is slowest and most stable and can carry gear enough to day trips with my wife, up the rivers and across the lake.

The Pyranha is by far the most nimble and easiest to roll and turn, but the hardest to keep straight over long legs on open water, and a bit of wind can make getting to the place you want to go pretty “interesting”. It’s a 1986 White Water boat, and it feels like one.

The Chatham 17 is the one for the long days and turns the slowest at 17 feet long, but is not hard to turn and I can reverse it 180 degrees with 3 strokes if I get in on a steep edge. If edged only lightly it takes me about 5 strokes to get a 180 degree turn from it. It’s the one that covers the miles the easiest and fastest too. My longest day trip so far in my Chatham was 7 hours and 6 minutes and the mileage was exactly 22.8. (Statute miles, not Knots) After almost 23 miles I felt I’d done some work, but nothing was sore and nothing was tired enough that I could not have gone back out for another 4-6 hours.

The Pyranha 390 moves a lot easier then the Chatham, but it moves so much side to side I am sure my mileage is a lot farther then I measure on a map when I am paddling it. I feel like I am paddling the equivalent of a moth on the water.

Our longest trip to date (my wife Anna and I) was about 27.4 miles in out Old Town Loons, but my wife and I left at 5:45 in the morning and didn’t stop until 9:30 at night in July. The Loons are not fast, but they move very easily and don’t wear us out. 27.4 miles is longer then 22.8 miles, but the 22.8 mile trip was a 7 hour trip, and the 27 mile trip was over 15 hours. We did stop on the shore for a picnic, and we stopped at a lot of little inlets to look at birds, a few beavers, and sneak over the edge to look at some antelope, so the trip ate up time because we were not always moving on the water.
Anyway, I don’t have enough experience with a lot of different kayaks, so most of what I believe I know is simply from chatting with folks that do know, and have years of experience. I covet their opinions and knowledge.

Now… About my hybrid GL paddle:

It’s made from Poplar. Western Red Cedar is hard to get here in our small town (15 miles from my home) and the lumber yard had some poplar that was nearly dead straight and 100% clear. So that’s what I used. I did make 2 Greenland paddles before, but I didn’t make them correctly. They were 7 feet, but the blades were 3.3" wide and the loom was too long, making the slimmer blades too short. So the blades don’t grab a lot of water. I do well with them for sculling and all the maneuvers I have tried, but I just could not get much mileage from them, even when I’d step up my exertion to my personal “10”. So my 3rd one (this one) was a hybrid. “Too long”, “too wide” and “too heavy”. But my idea was to go oversized and slim it down later if I want to, as I learn it’s feel and abilities.

I was interested in the design of the Aleutian paddles too and saw they have a ridge down the power face. The users tell me that type doesn’t flutter like GL paddles do if you get your angles a bit off. So my latest paddle is what I’d call 90% Greenland and 10% Aleutian.

The blades and the tapers are exactly what I see in pictures of some of the GL paddles that are on the larger end of the scale, BUT I made both blades with a tapering ridge running from the loom down almost the full length of the blades (both sides) that tapers to only 1/4" wide and 1/8" tall before it disappears. The 1st time out I had the ridges higher and more square in shape. It did grab water VERY well and it didn’t flutter at all, even when I purposely angled the blade “wrong”. But it made a “plunk” nose every stroke and caught air so it would pull a bubble under the surface, even at pretty slow cadences. I left the tips nearly square too.

So I brought it home and planed off about 1/2 pound more wood, tapering the ridges down a great deal,rounding them reducing the thickness of the blades and also tapering the ridges down about 50%. The next time out it was nearly as stable as the 1st time, without any flutter unless you got it quite a bit off it’s useful tilt. It was noticeably lighter after my modifications and I rounded both tips a lot. In my 2nd test the paddle was very quiet and still was easy to make strokes with, and had no flutter. The ridge was now quite small out in the mid blade to the ends of their tapers, but looking at the ridge on my Euro/spoon blades, they were small too. I reasoned I could make them thinner on my wood paddle and stand up off the blade a bit less too, because they were 2 X longer then the ridges on my spoon bladed paddle. It worked.

I am taking it out in the morning again to see if there is anything more I want to do to it before I finish the oil build-up. It’s got 3 coats on it now and I will have 6 before I am done, but I think I want to be extra sure before I invest the 6 days more to build up the finish (2 days per coat)

The paddle now weighs almost 3 pounds. It may be too heavy, but so far I have not felt any fatigue with it. I guess I need to do a 10 hour trip before I make any decisions about that.

I work every day with hand tools to earn my living, so perhaps I will not feel it’s too heavy because working with old fashioned tools (like those used 240 years ago around the time of the American Revolution,) and having been using those types of tools since I was 8 years old, (yes, Eight) I am used to exerting force with my hands and arms.

Paddling is NOT the same, but my muscles are already used to working and enduring 12 hour days, because I have done that kind of work for over 1/2 a century now. But if the new paddle feels like it’s too heavy or too large I’ll have it on my bench pretty fast, and give it a “Radical Weight Loss Program”.

If I can get my wife to take a picture and down load it, I’ll post a picture of the finished paddle soon.

I’m not familiar with the Pyranha. What makes it easier to roll than the Chatham?

It’s smaller and shorter, a lot lighter and very “round” from the sides to the top of the decks. Look at the picture and you can see.
P8030001 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
It’s like a pointy cigar with a cockpit in it’s middle.

It’s down sides are a lack of any kind of tracking so 100% of it is about your paddle. No V, no keel, no skeg, no nothing. It’s more like an oval snow saucer than a boat.

Next is the fact it has NO deck rigging at all.

And last, as a 1986 style WW kayak, it has no bulkheads and with a stiffening rib of foam 4" wide going from the back of the seat to the stern, and also it’s made with a foot board instead of foot braces, so putting float bags in is a problem also. I could remove the foot board and place a bag up front, but there is not a lot of room to get bags on both sides of the foam rib which is about 5 feet long from mid boat to stern.
If there was an expanding foam that didn’t ever waterlog I would fill the back and the bow in front of the foot board and call it good enough. It’s not a kayak I’d use for camp-outs anyway. So it has issues we have to deal with as it sits.

But it does roll effortlessly.

So easy in fact that if I am a bit too aggressive I can (and have, many times) flipped it back up and had it continue over to simply capsize on the other side.
But I learned to slow down the sweep and just lay back on the rear deck slowly and doing it that way it pops upright almost by itself. In waves it’s been a challenge for me because I have yet to figure out how to time the hip-snap and that snap needs to be about 1/2 the force I need to up-right the Chatham17. If you go hard and fast you just flip over all the way 360 degrees and are still upside down. If I slow it down I can catch myself with the paddle by leaving it in the water about 8" deep of so. or by extending it to the other side and letting it skid on top of the water as a brace. But if I go too fast I can’t seem to get my paddle in place to do either one very well. I am learning. Timing is important but strength is not so much.
I hope to be smooth in the coming months. So far I am not smooth, but I can get back on top of the water.

Not having any gills, that’s been very important to me.