agreed but no one’s exaggerating it here
But it’s beneficial to avoiding arm soreness and overuse injuries. torso rotation spreads the load over more muscles and reduces the range of motion your arm goesthrough, and unnecessary range of motion leads to many arm and wrist injuries. The first comment I usually hear from people who have corrected their form is, “this is so easy! I can go so much further!”
I think instructors exaggerate the motion because they want to drive it home, no one should feel like they actually have to wear a sore in the small of their back. Fact is the “twist” or rotation runs from the hips to the shoulders, so it’s a bit more than just the lower back.
rotation and push-pull
Good advice on torso rotation. In regards to my earlier post, I was trying to say “the arm pulls/pushes”, NOT “Pull/push with the arm”. The arms are just the links to the torso.
It would’ve been more accurate to say that the lower wrist is loaded in tension and the upper wrist is loaded in compression. Both should be neutral.
rotation
"because I paddle cab forward, canoe and kayak. Waste your effort rotating the paddle way past your rear if you want".
I didn’t say anything about rotating the paddle way past your rear. My statement was that good torso rotation goes all the way down to your butt in the seat. To some kayakers it happens well above the waist, if at all.
An efficient forward stroke is short and crisp. A good rotation improves your catch and lengthens your stroke (gets the paddle closer to the bow). Paddle blade is out of the water by the time your lower hand reaches your hip. A good training tip is to actually try to get the blade out by the time your lower hand reaches your knees; this often works out about right.
Torso action and leg drive work together. There should be no issue with a fast cadence and torso rotation.
The amount of torso rotation varies depending on the activity. More rotation is generally done for racing than touring. But a touring kayaker can often get higher speeds, if desired, if they move the backrest out of the way (at least temporarily) and rotate more. On very long races, like the 300 mile Everglades Challenge I save my shoulders by emphasizing torso rotation and leg drive more, and my arms/shoulders less.
None of this is written in stone, of course. With some very low volume skin-on-frame kayaks, a big torso rotation is not possible, and an abdominal crunch stroke is often used instead (it feels like a situp done with someone holding your legs). It has the same goals, to drive the paddle using the legs and big muscle groups.
Greg Stamer
Maybe you know a lot, but you sound
like you’re talking out of a book.
The part about a crisp torso contribution is good. Anything, other than the ghastly parody of exaggerated rotation I see in some youtubes. I was frustrated by those, early on, because I saw that there was no way my cab-forward, crisp catch, prompt release style could include a “hollywood” torso rotation. My rotation is there. It contributes exactly what it can, and should, and nothing for hollywood. You won’t see much of it from shore, but it isn’t for show.
It gets so tiresome hearing old doctrine.
I don’t agree. I hear torso rotation
exaggerated all the time, as if it were the equivalent of leg drive in rowing.
I imagine Bob Foote may exaggerate canoeist rotation in his videos because he’s trying to make a point. When he paddles without thinking about the camera, he rotates only a little more than I do.
All the stuff about rotation would make more sense if the kayak paddle moved only in a horizontal plane. The farther one gets from low angle, and the closer to high angle, the more limited and economical should be the torso rotation. Beyond a certain degree, torso rotation means diminishing returns, especially over a long day of paddling. Some is good. More is just talk for the crowd.
dogma and doubters…
“Maybe you know a lot, but you sound like you’re talking out of a book”.
Well, as the person who wrote the forward stroke section for Heath’s and Arima’s “Eastern Arctic Kayaks” book, I suppose I should take that as a complement… 
I practice what I teach. Sounds to me like you have a chip on your shoulder from past experience. I can respond only to my comments. There’s a lot of garbage on the internet.
Torso rotation, like any technique can be done well, can be done poorly, can be over-exaggerated, or can be scoffed at.
If you feel that moving your butt in the seat is “exaggerated”, then I strongly disagree with you.
IMO, racing is the best feedback on how your stroke compares to others. Performance matters, not dogma. That said, I don’t know any serious paddlers who do not view their forward stroke as a lifetime “work in progress” and continually strive to improve it. That’s what makes kayaking interesting to me.
Greg Stamer
You’re Shortchanging Your Stroke
By taking it out too prematurely and waisting energy doing so. Best to let the blade automatically come out by itself effortlessly after it has done its job of propelling you past it. Try it, you’ll love it and go faster too. clyde
Cocked back
I think it’s more on the outside. For a non doc, you sure seem to have some understanding of physiology. I noticed last couple days my wrist is cocked back when typing, riding bike… Maybe this because the wrist is weakened and wants to bend that way, but could be part of the problem.
Thanks for your and others comments.
somehow
I’m going with Greg on this one.
Say what?
Do you think that the guy who’s well known all over the world when it comes to elite paddling skills might actually be right this time?
(Actually, all the racers whom I’ve ever heard speak/write on the subject of length of stroke say the same thing too. Funny thing about that)
No chip, just a concern for the many
paddlers who get fed the torso rotation line while being left in complete ignorance of what the rest of their body is doing.
On your butt, in a ww kayak it isn’t going to move much. In a flatwater kayak you can move it all you want.
Press your torso against a low chair back, so your torso can’t rotate. Take your paddle in hand, and notice how many degrees of rotation you can manage at your shoulders, without your arms. Not saying you should emphasize the shoulders, any more than emphasize the torso, but do you think your shoulders do not participate quite actively in your stroke?
Every time somebody has a sore place associated with paddling, someone drags out the tired old advice about “You’re not using your torso”. But it doesn’t take much kayaking before people ARE using their torsos, and their shoulders. But in ww, not their butt.
You also need to pin your back to a
low chair back, so your torso can’t rotate, take your padddle or broom handle in hand, and see how much paddle motion is possible by movement of your shoulder girdles. Amazing. And less internal resistance by far than that involve in torso twist.
Not saying to rely on the scapulae and collar bone, any more than the arms. But between the torso and the wrists, the shoulders are a real important part of the linkage.
clyde, you do some ww attainments with
me, and see if I’m shortchanging my stroke.
You do Chubby Checker if you want. I don’t need to twist myself silly to paddle efficiently.
shoulder/upper torso
"Press your torso against a low chair back, so your torso can’t rotate. Take your paddle in hand, and notice how many degrees of rotation you can manage at your shoulders, without your arms. Not saying you should emphasize the shoulders, any more than emphasize the torso, but do you think your shoulders do not participate quite actively in your stroke?"
Who is saying that you don’t use your shoulders/upper spine? Your torso goes from your pelvis to the base of your neck.
A good torso rotation stroke starts in the legs, involves your hips (one hip moves back while the other moves forward) and then involves your entire torso including your upper spine/shoulders. What it doesn’t involve is bending your biceps in a weak attempt to arm-power your stroke.
Just to give a well-known example, Oscar Chalupsky is a huge proponent of torso rotation and uses a drill he calls the “Shoulder Power Drill” where you lock your pulling arm and pull with “just your shoulder” (pull strongly with your lats/back while you rotate your upper spine). This is essentially what you have described. This is one drill of many. His drills hit the entire torso and legs.
Not sure why you are saying that you must spin yourself silly. Unless you are sprinting (that involves huge leg drive and big rotation – sometimes even with a rotating seat), a strong torso rotation for touring can be visually subtle – an observer might only notice that your PFD moves smoothly from side to side.
Greg Stamer
Paddle Is Useless Out of the Water
It only works when it is in the water, so it doesn’t make sense to take it out almost immediately after it goes in? Better to extend the duration of the blade in the water and let it come out naturally.
you are ignoring
The downward force, and the advantages of tempo.
Also ingnoring the seriously-misdirected
… thrust of a blade that gets significantly behind the paddler’s body. Once the thrust is angled upward, a lot of energy is wasted forcing the boat down/lifting water which could have been applied to pushing the boat forward. All the really good canoe racers I’ve seen reach as far forward as they can, and pull the blade from the water once it’s right beside them. In a business where races of several miles are won by just a few seconds, these guys have figured out how to gain every tiny extra bit of speed they can.
Us average paddlers don’t need to be so obsessive about this though, since the sheer rapidity of the stroke that is needed to make this work is an energy-eater too.
internal resistance?
– Last Updated: Apr-12-14 9:39 AM EST –
If torso rotation is inhibited by internal resistance then something is out of kilter with the application of the technique. Maybe you're talking about the wannabe racers that are pumping their legs furiously while their boat rocks all over the place such that they look like a rabbit f'ing a football.
Oscar Chalupski is one of the most efficient paddlers on the planet. He rotates to an extent such that you can read the back of his shirt from beside him when he is extended for the catch. Considering he lost all his drink one year in the Molokai and still won the race I don't think he's wasting any energy battling "internal resistance".
Sure you can rotate further in a modern single footwell surfski or a flatwater k1 than when looked in a WW boat. But then you view videos of Clint Robinson in a spec ski in lifeguard competitions and there is still a tremendous range of motion in his torso even siting in a seat covered in wax to stop his butt slipping out in the surf. The stroke is all up front for sure but the power is from the torso. His shoulders look like pistons and his arms are connecting rods. And he's still driving through the legs even though the range of motion of butt/legs is restricted in a spec ski.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6K7fo5HEXw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaJc8B_cCcI
Regarding the opening post. All the use of the torso in the world won't hurt or help the wring problem. That problem has to do with either gripping too tightly or excessive wrist flexion during the stroke cycle or a combination of the two. Advise to use the torso effectively is good advice but the wrist problem is to be addressed by making sure the paddle is feathered correct for the user's technique so the wrist is neutral through the stroke cycle and having the user monitor grip for appropriate pressure.
torso rotation
– Last Updated: Apr-12-14 10:08 AM EST –
Is a loose term that you take way to literally. No one is saying you turn 90 degrees in their seat. But if you kayak and you aren't using your torso, you're not being efficient. Extrapolate from there.
The only way one can possibly NOT rotate their torso when canoeing or kayaking is if one arm is completely stationary at the wrist and the paddle pivots at that point.
Talk to a whitewater kayaker who has had to apply a burst of speed in a flat section. Torso rotation will get you there faster.
I used to think that also clyde
until someone taught me to lean forward more and I learned that most of the power comes at the beginning of the stroke. You waste more energy and disrupt the beginning of your next stroke when you’re still pulling the trailing blade out of the water.
Try picking up your tempo. Your paddles doesn’t have to be out of the water any longer than when you trail the blade behind you. And this way you’re not exposing your shoulders to undue stress.