This is similar to sculling
The racing environment in general is different. This isn’t new. But there’s not much chance the to-PFD-or-not will change there as long as we have lawmakers who went to the Ivy League schools. And less product to arguing about it on pnet, where there are so many casual paddlers.
I am not sure I am following you, but
most of the racers I know are casual paddlers when they are not racing.
I wasn’t even thinking of shells or rowing.
A particular race comes to mind several years ago, when the temperature was in the high ninties.
The participants were ACA insured which does in fact require PFD’s. Prior to the race there was a lot of talk about withdrawing due to overheating problem, and then some one mentiond that if no one had a PFD on while on the starting line, they doubted that everyone would be disqualified. Most if not all decided to chance it, and needless to say, the organizers looked the other way
There are times when a little common sense makes all the sense in the world, but the PFD purists are too hard headed to think in terms of common sense.
Jack L
Nothing to do with Ivy-League schools
– Last Updated: Feb-04-11 3:58 PM EST –
Go to a place where scullers are training using rowing machines on the dock, and watch for a while. I honestly don't believe that there's anyone who only "talks" about rowing who has has any clue what the exertion level is actually like. Statements about tradition or politics being the reason for not using PFDs are proof of this. There have been legitimate posts about things that some rowing organizations could do to improve safety, but the casual observer's idea that competitive rowers could somehow sustain the same level of power output when wearing a PFD couldn't be more incorrect.
By the way, I could see inflatable PFDs being used, but at the same time, the safety record of competitive rowing isn't something that seems to cry out for the need to "make more laws", especially with all those highly buoyant oars available to hang on to during the half-minute it takes the support boat to arrive (previous posts about this have said that the availability of a support boat seems to be one thing that SOME rowing organizations could improve. Most have one very nearby at all times).
users choice , wear PFD or not …
– Last Updated: Feb-04-11 6:30 PM EST –
........ when one has the choice to wear or not w/o breaking any law , that's the bottom line , it's a choice .
Those who choose to wear do so because they feel they have much greater odds of NOT DROWNING should they end up in the water where swim , float , re-enter or rescue become their only options . They believe the PFD will help keep their head and mouth for breathing above the water . They believe they can remain breathing if all else fails and exhaustion becomes evident ... barring unconsciencness .
Those who know the possibilty of ending up in the water "is possible" and choose not to wear a PFD are also aware that the same get out of the water options the wearer has , are the same options available to them after a water entry .
The difference would be that those who wear have signifigently less chance of drowning . Also those who wear have a much better last resort for backup if all else fails . Plus I believe , those who wear will have an easier time of accomplishing one of the options available after water entry , and far less chance of exhaustion .
If one does not realize that the possibilty of ending up in the water is possible , that is a whole differnt issue all together which calls for some education about water activities so they can choose to wear or not wear knowing in advance the benefits of a PDF being worn , or choose to forfiet those benefits .
If a paddler drowns while not wearing a PFD , it because they couldn't breath air anymore . When a paddler drowns while not wearing a PFD we mostly feel it was avoidable ... barring full or semi unconsciencnness . I for one don't feel hypothermia can be the cause of a paddler's death for one not wearing a PFD . I think they drown long before hypothermia becomes an alternate death occurance in most every event .
I think a person wearing a PFD can succumb to hypothermia and either drown face down floating or face up if enough time goes by after water entry . Imerssion clothing both delays and prolongs hypothermia and buys time , a PFD delays exhaustion and buys time . Depending on individual the time from water entry to exit or floatation aid is critical . Some can delay exhaustion for a long time , others will become exhausted sooner , and yet others very quickly .
That's all I got to say about it .
I’m not sure anyone said that
I think the statement was that LAWS would not change as long as LAWMAKERS came from ivy league schools.
PFDs aren’t used in rowing because they would be a competitive disadvantage.
No one is suggesting what you think they are (I bet you’re a rower!).
Thank you
I whole heartedly agree with every thing you say
jack L
To be clearer
It seems that someone always brings up racing in the discussions of whether a PFD should be required. The overheating argument comes up in all forms of paddle craft racing - sculling is the same as the others - people out on cold water with the occasional oh sheet capsize.
My point is that there is not much point to be had here. Racing is a different environment and not the same as a guy on a cold arse lake on a casual paddle. Nor is there much likelihood that the racing environment will change regardless of anyone’s individual opinion.
So - I am not sure why this keeps coming around.
Okay, fair enough
I read between the lines too much because the subject HAS come up a few times, that competitive rowers ought to be required to wear PFDs.
No, I’m not a competitive rower (I do row 100s of miles a year, but in a boat that most people mistake for a canoe, which does not even have a sliding seat), but I have seen the rowers at our local club during their on-shore workouts, and the intensity is mind-blowing. The university in town has a bunch of rowers too, but I’ve only seen them on the water from a fair distance, and by that method of observation there’s no way to appreciate what they put themselves through, so that’s why I mentioned the on-shore workouts. But as you pointed out, this time around, it seems I was barking up the wrong tree.
Wetsuit, what wetsuit?
Where did you get the wetsuit information from? I’d read that the life jacket was stowed in the kayak, but had not read about a wetsuit.
A picture of the boat showed something that looked like the sprayskirt attached to the cockpit. Did anyone get a report on there being a sprayskirt, still attached to the boat?
The day was very warm and sunny, 60 to 70 degrees. Too warm to keep a wet suit on. My guess is that the wetsuit was never put on. If it was found with the boat, I’d guess that it was just stowed there, and never used that day.
No, it seems to me that someone
always wants to force their opinion that PFD’s must be worn by all at all times and when they do that I’ll respond every time
We don’t wear them when we are swimming. We don’t wear them when we are on power boats so why should we be forced to wear them when we are in a paddle craft?
The racing issue is simply just another of the many reasons why they should not be forced on us.
Kind of silly to wear a PFD if I am going to be paddling all day long in water that is two feet deep. -you can add that to the racing issue
Jack L
So the real argument is…
OK - the issue you (and others) have is the idea of being forced to wear PFD’s, period. It’s not just about racing because as happened above, even if that comes off the table another argument gets brought in.
So I don’t see why even bring racing into this. It’s a very different environment (my niece sculled in Dartmouth) and it’s not the real argument. The real argument is whether someone thinks that a precaution like this is within the purview of a governmental entity or should be left entirely to individual choice.
actually Dennis that’s incorrect
– Last Updated: Feb-05-11 8:30 AM EST –
I've been a lawyer for over 30 years and a paddler for 25, sea kayaker for 10 and registered maine sea kayak guide since 2005--the law in most, if not all, states is that you have to have a PFD or other floatation device IN THE VESSEL, but don't have to be wearing it--although common sense would dictate that you should--that's the law in Maine and Maryland where I have guided and in Virginia where I now live. BTW all guiding outfits that I know of require their clients to be wearing the PFD (news flash-- it won't work unless you have it on)and I always wear one--last summer I even bought an inflatable one to wear on really hot days much more comfortable now that I live in the tropics of tidewater VA.
curious about wetsuit
I have a hard time putting one on or taking it off when on dry land (My dry suit is much easier, and much more comfortable to wear) I’m assuming that the victim wasn’t wearing it then tried to put it on after he capsized.
Yup - I was likely too cryptic
– Last Updated: Feb-05-11 12:14 PM EST –
Sculling is a fairly expensive sport, between several thousand for a scull and the cost of the travel associated with it. And you need access to open river for a significant portion of the year, which puts you in the snotty northeast for much of it. I am not saying that only Ivy League schools can afford it - we have a number of high schools locally who put out sculling teams. But schools of any level or type can only manage it if they have some number of well-endowed benefactors.
So sculling, and the norms associated with it, are a whole lot more visible and important to those who graduated from Yale or Harvard or Dartmouth, than Cobleskill Ag and Tech. The former is where a rather large number of elected officials come from.
Someone above - I think it was guideboatguy - voiced my biggest concern about their refusal to require at least inflatable PFD's when the water is still cold. The ratio of little bitty escort boat to up to two boats of 8 each seems shaky to me, especially when the escort boat already has at least two adults in it, one to drive and one to coach. If they really had to get all the scullers out of the water, they don't have the capacity to do so. And at least a few PFD's have gone floating down the river when there was a capsize, just as an inevitable result of trying to pull PFD's out of a mesh bag in a rush when things go south.
We also have run into youth kayak and canoe racing programs locally. Literally - we went to use a local lake or pond and it was busy with a race event. These kids come in pouring sweat as well, but they always seem to run a higher ratio of rescue capacity to paddlers in the water than we see in sculling.
jonsprag1, your discription …
– Last Updated: Feb-05-11 10:55 AM EST –
...... of PFD laws needs to be elaborated on some .
What you have stated is only a part of the PFD laws in regards to Maryland state waters . Although correct in what you have said , that does not apply to "all" age groups , and "all" waters for Maryland state all the time .
"Any" person under the age of 13 years , MUST "wear" an approved PFD at "all" times when underway in a vessel under 21' in length . Extending that statement there are also the special PDF's for persons under 50 lbs. , and the requirement that all required to be worn PFD's must fit the wearer properly (no putting an ill-fitting PFD on a person under age 13) .
Though not exclusive to canoe/kayak , it would almost surely be every time (always) when a canoe/kayak is on the water in Maryland state .
Second , there is the seasonal law for the upper Potomac river (piedmont - mountain range) requiring "ALL" vessel occupants upon this section of the river to "WEAR" an approved PFD from Nov.15 through May 15 . (plus on vessels 16' and longer a type 1V throwable floatation device is required) .
http://www.dnr.state.md.us/huntersguide/bs.asp
Although these laws are shown on a DNR link titled Hunters Guide , make no mistatke they are inclusuve of "all" persons upon Maryland state waters .
a life jacket stowed in kayak ??
… I had posted prior that I did not find any mention of a PFD and am wondering where you remember reading about a stowed life jacket ??
Beginners to expert
JackL. and rest of my fellow paddlers, your right what the heck, it was my mistake of thinking and given a blanky blank! Then, I miss read the state PFD law, whitewater paddlers must use them. Then all children under 16 must wear some kind of pfd. Then when using a gas operated boat while it is in use,they are required to wear but then up to the operator of the boat. Well I found out one thing for sure stop posting and just read. And mind your own business!
Please don’t stop posting Dennis
Your intent was just fine, and you are certainly right in trying to get all paddlers to wear PFDs.
I wear one many times, but there are also occassions when I am with other paddlers or in shallow conditions that I don’t think it is necessary, and I would hate to see a law making us wear them all the time.
Post hear often, and you will find that there are lots of people who will agree with you and then lots more that won’t, but we all have that one thing in common and that is our love for paddling.
Jack L
stand corrected
– Last Updated: Feb-05-11 7:31 PM EST –
In MD for some age groups PFDs are required---in Maine, unless things have changed in the past two years, no PFDs need be worn by anybody at any time--although you will never see me not wearing one when I'm in a kayak whether Im in Maine, Va, MD or anyplace else
news flash
the type 5 pfd is like a fanny pack that has a CO2 container to inflate it. It blows up and then you put it on. It also has a manual valve. I’m not making any claims as to the safety but it is approved by coast guard and must be warn at all times.