Best underlayer and drytop system

What about in the water.
On my original scenario, if I had to swim for 1h in 48F water, underlayer soaked from persperation, drysuit, how would I do? My concer being that the drysuit relies on dry insulation under the suit. What if the insulation’s wet, not filled with water from a leak, but completely soaked from persperation.



Paul S.

If it’s cold in the air
It’ll be cold in the water. Usually - there are those days where the ocean is maintaining warmer temps than the air around change of seasons. The one advantage of a wetsuit is that if helps keep you warm when wet. To a point - for many, at some point being wet is a thermal problem in itself.



My issue with wetsuits is that there are limits to how cold I can make them work even with additional layers, and for me that limit is the lower 50’s. In fact, trying to extend the wetsuit into fall the year I was starting to get a roll was why I decided I wanted a drysuit.



Personally, I have moved to being an advocate of going right to the drysuit for paddling in water conditions like the northwest and Maine. Especially when the question is coming at a time that the outdoor season is close to winding down and pool sessions to learn a roll aren’t really all that far away. You can limp thru this fall getting some basics under you with strokes, go after a roll over the winter and take the next several months to look for deals on a decent drysuit.



And really - no matter where you start, you will very very likely end up in a drysuit.

I’m going to ask Paul’s question

– Last Updated: Aug-15-06 12:52 PM EST –

one more time because I think it's a good question, and it hasn't gone answered yet as far as I can tell (although thank you, Celia, I gained a lot from your posts): The main value of a DS is waterproofing, not insolation from the cold. If your underlayer under a DS is sopping wet from perspiration, once you wind up in the drink, how much thermal protection does a DS/underlayer combo provide?

??
I’m not understanding the confusion. If it’s cold in the air it’s cold in the water, like I said above. So how long you’d have in the water depends on how cold it and you are.

But there are drybags, and changing layers as needed. And most paddlers I know in drysuits do change out at least their torso layer if they get sweated up, and a dry torso with a wet pair of pants is generally not a problem. You’ll be OK.



Are you looking for some kind of a chart with numbers? I don’t know of one.



Seriously, this is getting way too complicated. The original question is coming from someone who is, if I understand correctly, early on in their paddling and has some aggressive skills work to go. It is awfully early to think that they can gauge now exactly what they will need by a year or two from now. The best mark is others’ experience, and that is coming in (from paddlers who are a lot more experienced than me) that a dry suit is their preferred choice for the conditions.

dry suit with wet underlayers
Although I’m not in the same situation as Paul and bohemia, I think their question need to be answered.



Majority of this board’s participants are from the colder state of Northeast and Mid-west where the winter is freezing cold. So a “standard” answer of sort had emerged that suites that condition. But both Paul and ‘bohemia’ are from the NW, where the winter AIR temperature are mild but the water is still cold. It’s actually harder to keep dry under the dry suit in that kind of conditions. Sweat is a real problem for many the paddlers on the ‘left coast’!



So, to repeat the question for the third time. Do wet underlayers insulate well enough in 50 degree water?

It sounds to me like…
…the “old buck” in question had forgotten what the 50/50/50 rule was and just made up something. You know how those Maine old-timers can be… :wink:

I think you’re missing the point, Celia
What they’re getting at is that wet insulation is less efficient than dry insulation. It transmits heat much faster, which means you’ll have less time in the water with wet insulation before you get hypothermic than you would with dry insulation. However, unless it’s wringing wet, I’ll bet it will still provide better insulation than a typical 3mm neoprene Farmer John.

thin capilene near the body
or silk if you like will keep a dry space around the body. Even in wetsuit booties after a swim those capiline liners make a world of difference.

No - I got it but

– Last Updated: Aug-15-06 3:45 PM EST –

it seems that some universal numeric answer is being looked for here, and I don't know of one.

My experience...wet undergarments in a drysuit are still be highly preferable over a wetsuit for any of the colder temps mentioned above. I tried the wetsuit bit and it didn't work for me into 50 degree water.
And warm air and colder water is the normal condition in Maine in July - I trust my drysuit best for that.

I've never tried swimming for an hour in any of these conditions, thankfully, so I assume that I need to be on the conservative side in how I dress for paddling.

The person who started all of this has, as far as I can tell, not had an opportunity to get get a tight handle on his tolerances in colder water and won't for another couple of months unless they get a really early cold snap up there.

If anyone has actually gone out and measured how long it took them to be in really bad shape, wearing a drysuit with wet underlayers, in varying temperatures of water, they should definately get into this. I don't have that information - all I know is that the drysuit works for me much better than a wetsuit.

And some materials retain some warmth capacity even when wet.

Here’s what I’m gonna do I think.
1. Buy a used Kokatat Wave now, Gortex, double tunnel, latex neck. $150 + shipping. It will come in handy on a high mountain lake (Waldo) this weekend. Water temp about 65F, but can get anything from 70F air to hail or snow. The club may not let me attend without some kind of shell.



Would also be good for say instructed or partnered roll sessions at the ocean beach. Not as claustrophobic or hot as a DS, probably not coming out of my boat, and the shore is 30 ft away. I’ve swum in the same water for 10 minutes just bathing suit. (I have started roll sessions at the pool.)



2. Buy a dry suit, maybe the Stohlquist bPod after I’ve looked more into dry suits, for winter ocean and lakes. Still check on the issue of perspiration soaked underlayer. (Thanks for the info here so far.) Ask on local boards too where there are more people with the same air/water experience.



3. I’m thinking maybe buy a Long John too, just for backup for the dry suit? Funny thing is it’s the cheap item in the bunch. It’s just that I can’t expect to extend it to the submersion temps and times I was hoping. But if I were to drive a couple hours, put on my DS, blow a neck gasket, I’d be glad to have the LJ as a backup with the DT. Might make a ok emergency patch for a big hole in the boat too .



Thoughts?



Paul S.


good to have both
Hi Paul, It is fine to have both a dry top/neo combination for “in between” conditions, so you don’t lose anything with your first purchase. With respect to the question of whetehr wet is colder, my experience is yes out of the water (evaporative cooling, especially if windy) but in the water I can’t tell much of a difference. I use a light weight polypro underlayer with a heavy weight polypro farmer john plus a long sleeve polypro top–all including drysuit made by Ravenspring. I’ve done rescue practice (quite strenous so a lot of sweating) and spent a fair bit of time in cold water, and as is true for polypro in general (it is like wool, warm when wet) haven’t worried about sweating. BTW, you might want to look at Ravenspring DS as they are custom fitted and a good deal money-wise. Best, John

Sounds good - layers to try
Sorry if I was getting too cranky there. Some days…



Anyway - the general idea of not killing your bank balance for alternatives to a drysuit sounds best. I wish (in hindsight) I had gone that route. If you come out next spring with a roll you’ll have a very different perspective on this issue than right now.



As to underlayers - I’d say look for at least one layer that will retain warmth ability when wet. It isn’t unheard of for more extreme temps to wear neoprene or a wetsuit under a drysuit, specifically to offer protection against a blown gasket. But there are some fleece and, I think what ChillCheaters are made of, that will still help you when they are wet. So you can sweat under the suit and just be stinky and soggy, not cold. I found for example that microfleece 100 shells are still effective even when they are soaked, as long as I don’t have a soggy layer under them. Polypro is my best base layer for most purposes, but I have to admit it only works well when I can change it out. It’s cold when sweated thru. And CoolMax wicks the best of any base layer I’ve tried.



But that’s just me - you may find other combinations work better for you.



(And you’ll eventually love your drysuit more than your boat.)

Thanks all
There were some good notes on underlayers. Souds like wet underlayers can still be warm, if I chose and layer them right. The other value for me in the discussion was in acclimating my mind to the idea that I’ll really want a dry suit when it comes time to play in winter water. It’s a lot of work breaking in us newbies, but I appreciate it.



I did order a LJ and buy a used DT for now. I’m gonna do the long swim test later in the winter in controlled conditions and let you know. Dry suit is in my plans too though. Ah well, more back posts to read.



Paul S.

Your water wardrobe
Paul,

Your quest for outerwear is on the same course I went, including the exact same dry top. By the way, it should arrive tomorrow by 3:00. I started with 3mm Farmer John, then got the Wave drytop. Under them I usually wore poly pro or spandex rash guard. Poly pro is a very good investment. Warm when wet, cheap and effective. I now have a Meridian dry suit and a fleece one-piece undersuit for cold. If it is really cold, I could wear the poly under that. It it is warm 60ish, I wear the poly pro. If it is 70ish, I wear hydroskin shorts underneath. Mix and match depending on the season and temps. You can’t go wrong and are making good investments as this stuff holds its value and is functional. Sort of like real estate, it provides you shelter from the storm.

Your water wardrobe
Paul,

Your quest for outerwear is on the same course I went, including the exact same dry top. By the way, it should arrive tomorrow by 3:00. I started with 3mm Farmer John, then got the Wave drytop. Under them I usually wore poly pro or spandex rash guard. Poly pro is a very good investment. Warm when wet, cheap and effective. I now have a Meridian dry suit and a fleece one-piece undersuit for cold. If it is really cold, I could wear the poly under that. It it is warm 60ish, I wear the poly pro. If it is 70ish, I wear hydroskin shorts underneath. Then there is the option of hydroskin only. Mix and match depending on the season and temps. You can’t go wrong and are making good investments as this stuff holds its value and is functional. Sort of like real estate, it provides you shelter from the storm.

Hey Bernie
Yep, I think so too.



Thanks for the advice in the voice mail.



Paul S.

Rash Guard
I have found that Rash Guard, Hydrosilk, or Underarmour works best under my drysuit in warmer weather.



Your layering system will get quite wet under your drysuit from sweat and just from the moisture that your body emits. Even a breathable suit will not be able to move the water vapor away fast enough to prevent build up.



Layers like those I mentioned have a skin tight fit so they do better in situations where you will not just be damp, but wet. They wick the moisture away, prevent the uncomfortable feeling of water actually running down your back, and they do a good job of insulating when wet. I like polypro, capilene, etc, but becuase of the looser fit it is better for conditions when you will be damp rather than completely wet.





Matt