Thank you.
Thank you for all of your feedback. I really appreciate it, although now I’m a little paranoid about using the factory rack. 
I saw the loopy things that Fat Elmo posted, but I’m not sure where I’d find those - any ideas? And I’m still not sure where exactly to attach them on the front and back of the car (Toyota Sienna minivan).
Seen that happen
A bowline not secured to the car wrapped around the front wheel of a friend’s car and imploded a kevlar Looksha 4 on the crossbar.
No matter what you’re doing, you have to do it right.
Those loopy things
are your own fabrication. Open the hood and look for a substantial bolt. Double a piece of nylon webbing, burn a hole through it with a hot nail, and secure it beneath that bolt with a large washer. Use good judgement here, it won’t be effective unless you keep a mind to strength. Get some advice, if needed, from a mechanical friend.
top ties are what they are called
rutabaga has them.
Nylon webbin’ - yer kin find it in any
outdoor store or hardwaar store.
FE
depends on trip
Down to the landing rarely use front or rear tie downs. Highway speeds(over 35mph) use front tie downs primararly because of wind shear from large trucks. Only use rear tie downs if rack is too short. Rear tie downs can be a real diasaster backing up. I always have a tie down place available and rope for rear tie downs if needed due to conditions or local cops…
Probably don’t need them…
– Last Updated: Jun-22-09 9:13 AM EST –
However, a good properly installed roof rack such as Yakama or Thule combined with cam-lock buckle straps wouldn't have helped in this case:
http://www.kajak.nu/bilder/bilder2003/div03_1/rails.jpg
Luckily a front tie down prevented the boats from leaving the roof. With a only PhD in structural mechanics I don't think I myself would have been able to foresee that particular accident.
I know of a similar accident at my local paddling club. No tie downs meant that the boats and rack all strapped together into one very solid unit landed in the opposing lane. Luckily the highway was empty and nobody got injured/killed.
Use tiedowns!
It seems that JackL has argued against the use of fore and aft tie-downs for years. This is America and JackL can do what he wants and advocate his own personal beliefs. Those are his rights.
However, the originator of this thread should take note. I and the vast majority of other posters to this thread clearly feel that tiedowns should be used (just re-read the posts). Furthermore, most (if not all) of the boaters I know personally also use fore and aft tiedowns. Have you ever heard, read about, or seen something occur that you could have sworn would never happen in a million years? I certainly have. I don’t believe my rack system will ever fail. However,if it does fail those tiedowns may give me a few extra seconds to avoid a possible catastrophe. Personally, I’d rather have my yak hanging to my vehicle by a rope and tearing up my car than flying through JackL’s front windshield.
Each to his own.
I’m the idiot that passed you going
nearly a hundred with a 17’ Royalex canoe tied on to factory racks with 1/4" nylon rope from the hardware store. Yup, that was me. But that was a long time ago and, even then, I used a single bow line.
Now, I don’t drive quite so fast (though at least one person I know might argue otherwise), but I still use the factory rack and ropes, two bow lines fastened to fender bolt loops, two belly lines, and a thwart lashed to a crossbar. No stern lines. No mishaps in 20 years.
My thoughts…
bow and stern lines take me about 1 minute each to install.
2 minutes to avoid possible weeks/months in court when someone sues you for not securing your kayak/canoe good enough. Not to mention possibly losing your kayak.
But, I have a Dodge Neon, with a whopping 24" bar spread…so I HAVE to use them. If I had my old blazer still (shoulda kept it) I might not use them when I go to the bay, but thats only a few (3?) miles of 30-45mph driving. Id still use them anything over just 2-3 miles though.
Never need tie downs
I have never needed my seat belt either, but I still use it. The same goes for my tie downs…
always worth repeating.
Kricky - thanks for posting the topic. It always is worth repeating every season bec. there are new paddlers here or those who are loading new boats, or longer boats, or an assortment of sporting toys.
It is not “doomsday” thinking - it is realistic and practical.
It is past argument for me. My father used to gently mock a stubborn position by saying “My mind is made up, don’t confuse me with facts.”
A few minutes for an extra layer of assurance that saves lives and protects equipment. Protects you from legal liability in the awful event of injury or death. And, in some states, if you do NOT use tiedowns and are in a vehicular accident, you will automatically be cited for failure to properly secure a load.
I trust the sky won’t fall down but I use tie downs to make sure my boats don’t fly off.
I don’t ALWAYS use them
If I’m only driving a 20 minute drive I often don’t use them. But when I do that, I don’t think I’m doing the right thing. I know I SHOULD be using them for the short drive too.
But choosing not to use them sometimes is not the same thing as advocating against their use. I wouldn’t do that. I also sometimes drive after two beers. But I wouldn’t argue that it’s the right thing to do.
risk analysis
Those who argue “I’ve been doing it this way for 30 years and haven’t had one problem” do not understand the math of risk analysis. Risk analysis deals with events that take millions of trials to appear with any regularity. Risk analysis recognizes that in a population of 6 billion world wide, one-in-a-million chances come to pass 6,000 times every day.
Taking action based on risk analysis is a very sophisticated, civilized action. It involves a high degree of understanding of how civilization works, as well as a high degree of trust in how civilization works.
Many people can truthfully say that they have never needed to wear seatbelts in their lives, covering the course of thousands or hundreds of thousands of miles travelled in cars. Yet, few of these people will try to argue that this proves seat belts are unneccessary.
Risk analysis argues in favor of using bow and stern lines when transporting bulky items on the roof of your vehicle. It also argues in favor of passing jackl if you ever see him on the highway and blocking him from passing you back. Or stopping to eat dinner if you see him to let him get far ahead.
tie-downs
I’ve often wondered about using under-the-hood anchor points for front tie-downs. It’s a little hard to explain without a diagram, but the essence is that anything coming out from under the hood is going to have to bend around the outer edge of the hood. And when one adds some tension to the lines, there is going to be side pressure on the edge of the hood as the line attempts to become straight.
So, my question is: has anyone noticed any damage to their hood when they’ve used under-the-hood anchor points for front tie-downs?
–
Darryl
Okay, will somebody please explain
– Last Updated: Jun-22-09 11:40 AM EST –
how stern lines, with my canoe secured as described above, would further help keep it on the car. This is an honest question, and yes,I have used them a few times in the past, but the last time I tied them, I couldn't see how they might might add anything in the way of stability or safety.
As for the factory rack, it's rated for 100 lbs. My heaviest boat weighs 69. Is there a valid arguement for not using it?
keep it from flying off
With both bow and stern ropes firmly attached, the boat should stay on your roof if the middle comes loose suddenly. It will make a racket as it starts to move around on top, causing you to stop immediately.
Even in scenarios where they won’t keep it on your car, hopefully they will keep it out of somebody else’s windshield/backwindow, where it could injure or kill someone.
For those who use bow but not stern lines, if the middle comes loose the boat will probably come off the roof and beat up the sides of your car before breaking free entirely. Also, if you hit someone else in the rear the boat could come flying off the front of your car, go through a rear window and injure a child in the other car’s back seat.
Dynamic vs static loads
come inta play wit weight ratings
FE
factory rack
On your other question, no reason I know of not to use the factory rack, it should be fine.
Nope
There’s very little tension on those tiedown points in my setup. I use the bow and stern lines as safeties. The primary load is carried by the rack.