From a bit of research on the net
this is often used as a half roll learning technique. I'd rather learn paddle control and finesse. It's also in grace under pressure. I googled "queen ann" and "high brace" with quotes
Look at the 5 middle image: head up. paddle close to vertical. This is no model for a brace. We paddle with much better paddlers that that. Sometimes we even ARE much better paddlers than that.
Sometimes I still swim *
Some Thoughts…
“It’s really the state of instruction in kayaking in general. It’s not a failure, certainly not a failure of any individual. But I think it’s a kind of immaturity in the field of kayak instruction on the whole, especially as it moves from an extreme sport for the athletic to more of a mass sport, like golf and tennis. Being not particularly athletic (nor unathletic) myself, I’m pretty sensitive to the borderline area. I was also a fairly accomplished teacher in a previous life, and these things interest me.”
I personally don’t think “maturity in the field of kayak instruction” is the issue. As a set of physical skills, kayaking is really not that extensive whatsoever (although perfection of any specific skill may take a long time or forever). You break it down and teach it step by step, hopefully in a progression that unifies to a whole. There are different ways to break it down and these different approaches work to varying degrees and rates of progress for different individuals. But as with any sport or endeavor, some folks are more gifted and will learn at much higher rates and with greater ease. Some will have to prod through, progress slowly and succeed on sheer will, tenacity and preserverance. Most will fall somewhere in the middle. These different rates of progression and learning are outside of the instructor’s control. While all men are “equal” in “God’s eyes”, in our earthly incarnation, variance is the norm. So my expectation of an an instructor is that s/he who knows the material, will not give up on the student and/or to be able recognize when the student may need another instructor or approach.
“As for trying it myself… of course! But I can tell you now that the symptoms I have fit the diagnosis in that article perfectly… diving paddle, no leverage for hip snap, etc.”
Yeah, well, that’s what it comes down to. Take action and keep trying. Jeeze, the process for learning the high brace is no different than learning a flatwater cartwheel with my playboat. I have been shown the maneuver by different playboaters. I have books and videos on the move. I even theoretically know what I should be doing and even know what I am doing wrong but it doesn’t mean I am going to hit it tomorrow in the pool. It just means I keep plugging at it and know at some point my dogged practice will get me to a consistent cartwheel. That’s how I learned the high brace.
sing
rather than nit pick the technique - - -
and the article describing it i was, as i think y’all should be, impressed that the author can do a deep brace such as depicted. how many of you can do the same?
there are usually several ways to a successful roll (lay back, C-C) as well as bracing. in my book, using a high brace from upside down to right side up surface recovery is a success regardless of the technique used to get there.
Dogged practice…
> … keep plugging at it and know at some point my
dogged practice will get me to a consistent
cartwheel. That’s how I learned the high brace.
Well, sometimes dogged practice will get you… tendonitis. That’s what happened to me when I first learned to roll. I rolled in my first class and then practiced it a lot, as everybody advised. But I was doing some things seriously wrong, and ended the first season with blazing tendonitis in my wrist from muscling in a particular way. The second season I couldn’t even get up, and had to basically start over. Luckily I hooked up with a good amateur rolling instructor and they gave me some tips and observations, and were very patient, and that got me to a good roll that I could practice to perfection without damage.
But, you know, my so-called onside roll is still not quite as solid as my offside, because of the bad habits I burned in that first year.
So, apart from the obvious lessons, I conclude that technique really matters. Sometimes you (or us mortals, at least) can’t just figure out technique by trial and error – somebody has to show us, or we see it in a video… or an article(!)
–David.
"Dogged…"
as in committing to learning and practicing, hopefully in a way that is also attuned to what your body is telling you.
Okay, I haven’t seen the article being discussed yet. But I can already say, if you’re not careful, you can also blow your shoulder out trying for extreme high braces. What you see in the pics and what you actually end up doing may be vastly different. Have someone watch you to make sure you not putting your shoulders in a difficult position.
sing
Those who teach must do it clean
Especially if they publish to thousands. Teachers owe better technique than bracing in a way which will certainly dislocate a shoulder if done in surf enough times.
those who do not take it upon themselves to teach, harm no one but themselves. (well, if enough of them croak or call the coast guard or get hurt it will cause trouble).
That elbow thing is no nitpick (unless you have a thing for pain and orthopedics).
tough room . .
Peter et al,
I agree that learning to high brace well is difficult in the absence of a reliable roll. But there is a school of thought that effective high brace learning tools can facilitate dialing-in a less than efficient roll.
I do not see an extreme portrayal of the head in the wrong place. This guy is way >leaning back as he recovers (questionable technique), (images 5,6c,6d,) so his centered >head position is less crucial (and his abs are less engaged in the hip snap). Not really the >best technique as it will take him a bit of time to sit up and engage in a powerful stroke >(See Jed I’m listening).
Here’s where I try to distance myself from the sweeping generalizations that I often make regarding “correctness” of form. Peter, of course you are right that leaning back is not the most effective nor the most advantageous way to do this. But for some people and some body types this rapid lay-back may be the best way that they can learn to high brace.
The bizarre head position is pre-brace (images 2,4,5(middle)6b,7, 8).
I think an intermediate paddler (which to me means “has a decent high brace”) can learn >from the back flop technique and might well benefit from some of the other exercises.
Agreed. I read the caption of image 2 as the “what not do to” example. Please note that in images 4, 6b, 7 & 8, the paddler is falling into the water to start the exercise. I prefer to wrap around the boat a bit more but it’s not a major issue. The #5 sequence shows me that he’s bracing with all paddle and lay-back but without significant hip flexion. This is where I would prefer to see exaggerated hip flexion in order to clearly show the roll of the hips.
Image 6 D (highly questionable technique) shows his elbow badly out of position, this >could easily dislocate someone’s shoulder if used in a wave. His paddle is also at a pretty >high angle to the water. Not the marks of an expert.
Again he uses a lay-back to do the job that the hips are better at doing. I don’t see an elbow position issue in 6d. What about that picture caught your eye? What I see is that his spine is straight where I would prefer to see his head and torso deep in the water at this point. On the other had he’s not particularly long-waisted so maybe the lay-back and minimal hip flexion is a way to accommodate a deck that would otherwise hit him in the ribs?
The author is a BCU three star paddler . . . I think a magazine like sea kayaker >woud be able to find better authors, and to have photo’s better edited to avoid dangerous >technique, (image 6D).
I think we are being a bit harsh here. I thought his main points were spot-on. Specifically that the paddle needs to meet the water as horizontally as possible and that the head and torso should hit the water first, before the paddle. I really like two other points that I saw; the flat-back flop to break the capsize momentum and the way is outboard arm passes in front rather than over his head (protecting the shoulder).
Let’s not let details and his personal form get in the way of a message that will connect with a potentially significant group of paddlers. We’re not talking olympic-level freestyle form competition here. This is an article written by a developing coach presented to an audience, many of whom cannot roll never mind perform an extreme high brace.
I look forward to the Author’s later contributions; he IS trying. The question is one of >humility, and resiliancy to the drubbing he will take for publishing such radical exercises >with such an obvious error.
An article like this might well represent hundreds of hours of work. For his efforts he is paid maybe a couple of hundred bucks. Not exactly the kind of payback that encourages top-level coaches to give up their free time. It’s one thing to sit here in obscurity and voice our opinions but he’s on the front lines putting himself out there trying to produce something. I for one have nothing but respect for his efforts. I have my differences with regard to opinions on better technique but then I won’t be writing for the equivalent of a couple of bucks an hour any time soon.
I suggest we look at these articles from the perspective of the magazine’s subscriber base’s average skill level. There is stuff here that can help all of us. The stuff that doesn’t help us personally may still help someone else.
cheers,
jed
Agreed, but let’s be realistic as well .
>Especially if they publish to thousands. Teachers owe >better technique than bracing in a way which will certainly >dislocate a shoulder if done in surf enough times.
those who do not take it upon themselves to teach, harm >no one but themselves. (well, if enough of them croak or >call the coast guard or get hurt is will cause trouble).
Peter,
You certainly know my position on this. I couldn’t agree more that those that teach need to have their act together, but this guy doesn’t present himself as a coach nor as a certified instructor. He’s just another paddler that has something he wanted to share.
There is precious wiggle room available when you choose to teach others,especially if you do it beyond the club-level. It’s this lack of wiggle room that compels me to stay sharp with my personal skills. But there are also a wide range of instructors out there. From national-recognized and published stars to obscure, non-published instructor candidates. How will developing instructors “cut their teeth” if not through articles such as this?
It’s a lot of hard work to learn to become a good paddling coach. And I don’t even want to consider that being able to write well is a requirement of that goal. I know that I will never recover the time and money I’ve invested thus far in coach training. Many developing coaches have full-time jobs and teach not for a living but rather in order to learn to teach. We tend to expect too much from our instructor candidates who, after all, are just paddlers that have some skills and like to help other paddlers acquire skills. Is it possible that we make the ante too high and the criteria too perfect for mere mortals to attain?
Don’t mind me I’m just lamenting about the next few thousand I’ll have to invest to get past the next level of certification. . . . oh, the joys of pursuing instructor certification.
cheers,
Jed
More to the point.
EJ would disagree with much of what has been said here. For example, he teaches the brace before he teaches the roll. He also teaches leaning back on both the brace and the roll.
YEAH
and it does not even say on his videos that he has a BCU three star rating… probably is going to dislocate a shoulder some day or not be able to get up -right and paddle fast enough from laying too far back … :}
I still recommend his videos to people that want to learn, it’s helped me a lot.
…or in envy of his kids
who probably have much better practical skills than most of the people arguing here.
Hard to see in the froth in 6D
but I see him leaning back and his lower arm as too straight. His hand is about two feet away from his shoulders: too far.
Yes body types are important and it looks like he is carrying around quite a bit on his shoulders. Again I think he will bring a lot to this community, (more than I if I have to keep working as hard as I am).
Heck Chuck sutherland's rolling description got canned by one of the better instructors in new england recently and in print.
So got to be able to take some criticism if you want to go public.
And for my money if you boat is as far gone as his is in 6 c you're rolling up We are talking at least 140 degrees inverted there.
Ouch!
You know why young kids learn so fast? They don't really have a concept of the danger or death. Much looser on the water. It's all play and excitement. :)
Adults tighten up. Technique don't work well when the pliancy of the body is exchanged for a "holy crap I can't move" rigidity. The mental aspect... :D
sing
In Short Boats And Moving Water
there are things that can be done with far more ease than in long boats in static water (despite the level of texture).
Alot of long boaters have this notion that rolling in surf or ww water is much more challenging than in calmer water. Maybe the adrenaline crowd wants to perpetuate this notion? The fact of the matter is that if one is aware of the water flow and movement and one's orientation to these, there is tremendous help there to get one back up or to brace and stay up. For example, if you flip in the wave, or in front, and are getting carried along, if you let one of the paddle blades trail along in the horizontal position, there is incredible amount of support. All you have to do is flick the hip/pull up on the knee. You'll find yourself right back up and likely riding still on the wave.
Playboaters are so in tune with the movement of water and the interaction of their body, boat and paddle with it. They have the mental calmness and prescence of mind to take advantage of those helpful forces. A lot of long boaters simply panic because they're not used to being pushed along. All that moving foaming and frothy stuff throws their minds into a corresponding turmoil and they lose that intimate connection to their body, boat and paddle.
sing
Hey liv2
For Christmas I got a couple of magazines. Pretty cool to see the inlet adventure after reading it on PNet. And nice to read Wendy K again.
My 2 cents on the bracing article... what works works. My buddy had his daughter video his roll. It's beautiful. He's up. It's smooth. Just a great roll. He's 6'4" or so and his head doesn't tip down one bit through the roll.
Go figya.
Re: In Short Boats And Moving Water
Sing,
I agree that the water turbulence is (or should be) a big help, but are you suggesting taking a mental inventory of conditions before you flip so that you can orientate yourself while underwater? If so, all I can say is that approach sure doesn’t work for me. While my over-all kayaking abilities are about average, I’ve always had a very strong roll, and when I flip, I’m completely unaware of where I am relative to the topside world. I go 100% by feel.
Bob
if one is aware of the water flow and movement >and one’s orientation to these,
there is tremendous help there to get one back >up or to brace and stay up
Same Page, Different Words
You wrote:
"I flip, I’m completely unaware of where I am relative to the topside world. I go 100% by feel. "
I wrote:
"All that moving foaming and frothy stuff throws their minds into a corresponding turmoil and they lose that intimate connection to their body, boat and paddle."
Think about when we first learn to roll. We arch up to the sky, look at the paddle blade, sweep and hip flick while we make sure that we keep our head down and come up looking at the water. Most long boaters will continue to do this. It works and continues to work in general for their purpose because they are not in any kind of frothy and foamy situation with moving water. Most of the time, when a surf kayaker or a white water boater flips, it's in extreme turbulence. There is hardly anything to see but a foamy mess. But there is a lot of sensations going on. If one can remain calm, perception is shifted from sight to the feel of the body, boat and paddle relative to the movement or turbulence of the water.
sing
The head in rolling
The main reason not to lift the head is to avoid engaging the non-rolling knee. The other is to avoid relaxing the pressure from the rolling knee. Lots of people, both bracing and rolling, keep their head pretty much in the center and that can work fine. I have seen people roll up and then think “oops, I’m supposed to have my head on my shoulder” and they put it there even though they are completely upright. The argument about weight of the head in and out of the water only applies if you are doing an EJ-like roll where your head is actually in the water through almost all of the roll. For a standard C-to-C or sweep roll your head comes out of the water very early and bending your head down on your shoulder is going to make little difference. It is also rarely useful to yell at someone missing their roll to “keep your head down.” There is almost always some other problem that need fixing and is the cause of the head lifting.
What’s the head have to with a roll?
Yes! The head position helps in rolling, bracing, sculling etc entirely by its mechanical effect on the rest of the body. In particular, head position changes the way your lower body can move independently of the upper body, and thus whether you can roll the boat before the body, which is crucial.
Try this. Sit upright in your chair. Now simultaneously cock your left hip up, raise your left thigh up and press down on the chair with your right thigh. This is the motion of rolling the boat to the left with your hips, which begins a proper C2C roll (and other stuff) in which you have set up on the left (do I have it right?) before capsizing.
What naturally happens to your shoulder and head as you do that? If you have normal anatomy, your left shoulder will drop and your head will tilt to the left.
Now try the same thing, but start by holding your head tilted to the right. I don't know about you, but with me the same hip rolling motion above (raise left thigh, press down with right thigh) becomes much more difficult, even painful or impossible. In other words, the head position changes the body mechanics to oppose the roll. You can analyze exactly how it does that, complete with wireframe models, but it's a pretty clear fact from this exercise.
So think what happens if you start a real roll and then raise your head in the middle. The body then resists the independent rolling of the hips in the needed direction, and your hip snap essentially "unwinds," the boat stops moving toward upright, and your body, which is still way out there, goes crashing back down to the water without the rolling boat to drag it up. (You didn't really think the paddle could propel your body to upright all by itself.)
That, IMHO, is why you keep your head down during a roll, or at least, leave it neutral.
What about other effects -- the weight or bouyancy of the head? My physics intuition tells me that if you do the mechanics calculations, you'll find a miniscule effect, nowhere near enough to change the dynamics of a roll. Remember, you have a 50-75 lb boat, a 120-200 pound body, 4 feet of leverage on a paddle, all against a 10-15 pound head. And the head is only moving a few inches from one side to the other, even if it is farther out from the boat than the rest of the body. It just can't have any noticable effect by virtue of shifting its weight that distance, certainly not enough to change a roll from success to failure. Heck, I bet having a rudder on the boat, or other boat variables, changes things a lot more than the simple weight or bouyancy of the head.
Any physicists out there equipped to make these force calculations?
--David.
quite right, . .
It’s not about the head, a relatively small thing in the larger context. But it’s all about the spine and the limited flexion of the idividual vertabrae. Working together (all flexing inthe same dirrection) they allow the head and upper torso to move significantly relative tothe hips. But when the spine is bent in opposing directions along it’s length the effect is less impressive.
Your first exercise example works well, with greater range of motion beccause the whole length of the spine is flexing in the same direction. You second example has the spine bent into an “S” shape. Not condusive to rolling, IMO.
cheers,
Jed