let’s refine the point
I agree with greyak here. Now, if you’re guiding passive (occasional or non paddling) customers on rafting trips, then sure, it’s impractical to evaluate ability.
But if you’re engaging in kayaking or canoeing as an activity, it’s really no more than common sense to know how to swim. We’re not talking michael phelps stuff here, we’re talking about staying afloat and propelling yourself through the water. I never understand why anyone takes issue with this point or tries to split hairs over it.
still disagree
the whitewater raft trips are guided by guides that are in kayaks, with only the customers in the rafts. We teach them how to paddle a raft down the river, we don’t do it for them, therefore, they aren’t passive passengers but active participants.
I’m not saying that swimming ability isn’t good. It is. But, it isn’t necessary for paddling - just for swimming. If I take a group of kids out for their 1st experience paddling, I expect to teach them paddling skills. I expect them to wear a pfd, and i expect the pfd to keep them afloat if they happen to fall in.
Riding a bike is an efficient way to move about the neighborhood, but it isn’t a prerequisite to walking down the sidewalk. Swimming ability is not a needed skill for paddling, especially in an environment such as an easy river or calm lake.
be careful
Be careful - I won’t go so far as to say you don’t belong on the water, but you’re definitely handicapped, and worst of all it’s a handicap that is entirely your fault.
Even if you “always wear” your PFD, it doesn’t follow that you’ll never be without it. Fast water and freak conditions have been known to strip swimmers of their PFDs, even when securely attached - I doubt anybody can explain how this happens, but the fact is that it has happened and is documented in numerous accident reports. Then there’s the risk of human error and equipment failure where you might think it’s securely attached but in fact it isn’t. Then there’s the case where your PFD becomes entangled on something like an underwater strainer and you have to quickly wriggle out of it to have a chance to survive.
Also, being dependent on your PFD makes you less helpful in the rescue of other people, and of course you can’t give up your PFD to someone else who needs it more. These may seem like acceptable limitations in the abstract, but if you’re ever in the position of looking somebody in the eye just before they go down for the last time and being unable to help, it’s the kind of thing that could stick with you a long time.
It’s a good sign that you’ve taken lessons, but I’m a little bothered that you would take the time to argue the right of a non-swimmer to be on the water rather than to quickly fix your non-swimmer status. It’s something you can change in a season and we’ve got a new one just starting - why don’t you set a goal and make a plan to be a strong swimmer by fall?
Raft trips have guides…
– Last Updated: Mar-12-09 12:14 PM EST –
... presumably with experience and qualifications to ensure group safety, maintain manageable customer to staff ratios, have established safety plans/practices, and follow planned well known routes. I suppose you, as such a guide, are going to tell me that those differences don't matter is someone goes in?
It's the equivalent of the Scouts requiring a certified lifeguard be along if nonswimmers are on the water! Very different from a non swimming paddler.
Then there's the for profit nature of the operation - where you're pretty much - like any tourist industry - going to do whatever you can to take whatever customers you can get. You NEED the unfit and non-swimmers. Being more likely to "take the bus" as it were, for what may be a onence in a lifetime thing (vs regular outings for paddlers), they're your bread AND butter.
So, there is no "disagreement" on my end - just a different perspective - and a different set of motivation$.
another one
I answered LittleRed before I saw your comments, zzz, but your case seems even more extreme. So the same questions to you - what about the rare cases where PFDs can get stripped by the current or entangled on strainers?
And an even more serious question, with regard to your daughters and yourself - why would you put off learning to swim if you’re already on the water enough to be paddling? I mean, we’re not talking about something that takes years to learn. One or two sessions to learn how and then 30 minutes practice a day can make you a BSA-designated swimmer (100 yards) in no time. What possible reason can there be not to do this but to keep on padling?
Define “strong swimmer”.
I can swim, but I don’t swim very often, so I’m not conditioned well enough to be a strong swimmer. I can swim a variety of strokes, but don’t have much endurance.
For the severe situations that you describe, the Scout requirements to swim a couple laps in a pool probably wouldn’t be sufficient anyway.
I also haven’t practiced CPR in several years, so maybe I shouldn’t drive a car because I wouldn’t be competent to render assistance if I am involved in or come across an accident.
I agree that being a good swimmer is very wise for water based activities like rafting or paddling, but being able to swim doesn’t make a paddler into a super hero or a competent rescuer anymore than being able to paddle on a lake makes someone a good river reader and paddler.
Only training and practice in rescue situations makes someone more skilled and calm enough to respond effectively enough in rescue sitations. Just being able to swim won’t do the trick. Swimmers make just as many stupid decisions as non-swimmers.
Guides in kayaks = lifeguards
Non-swimming paddlers in other situations are VERY unlikely to have that level of backup/support - and you’re not doing them any favors with this flawed lone of reasoning.
but no one said it was "necessary"
The statement was that it was common sense.
Do I have to swim to kayak? Of course not. What if I come out of my boat? Well, I have a pfd. What if the pfd comes off, and/or I have to stay afloat and propel myself? Well, ok, THEN swimming might come in handy.
I suppose you can figure out if it’s necessary for you. In addition to making you confident and less prone to panic in the water - it’s really very easy. So no, I don’t agree that common sense doesn’t tell us that swimming would be a good skill to learn in water sports. Just as walking would be good common sense to know for a bicycler.
obstinacy
There is no other reason. If I had kids I’d teach them to swim because it’s a valuable life skill, and again, it’s very easy to learn.
comfort level
– Last Updated: Mar-12-09 12:24 PM EST –
I feel comfort level is as important as swimming ability. I swam competitively for 13 years, taught swimming and trained/certified lifeguards for 3 more (yada yada yada ;-)).
What I feel is critical is comfort in the water. If you can swim 100 yards (I used to in 50 seconds)but can't cope with a mouthful of water or a rope wrapped around your ankle without freaking out, you will have a problem.I used to teach the wee folks (beginner 2's of a 3 part course) to be comfortable in deep water, float, survival techniques, jumping off the 3 meter board, and just plain enjoying being in deep water. To me this was much more reassuring than proper form and speed. The beginner 3's would have fun floating while their classmates did cannonballs around them, lots of splashing and waves, and learning to deal with the imperfect conditions they'd encounter in lake, river or ocean swimming.
absolutely, great point
…and this is one of the things that learning to swim will likely provide - an increased comfort level in the water.
this realization
came to me whan I was 12. Already 5 years competition under my belt, 3000 yards a day for practice. I was snorkeling with a friend off a log raft. we had a rock attached to a rope and would jump off the raft holding the rock, going down about 40 feet. Coming up I got the rope tangled around my snorkel, immediately freaked out expelling all my air. definitely the wrong thing to do, but beneficial in the long run. My wife and son I would term ‘comfortable swimmers’ and that keeps me from worrying about them…too much!
extreme cases
– Last Updated: Mar-12-09 1:18 PM EST –
first, if the current is strong enough to pull off your pfd, then even michael phelps is gonna struggle to swim in that water.
2nd, of course i'm teaching my daughters to swim. but i'm also teaching them to paddle, and i don't see the problem with going out on the water before they are strong enough swimmers to pass the boy scout test.
again, i'm not saying that swimming isn't a good skill to have. i would agree that if it helps someone stay calm in the water, then that is good, but it's not the only way to stay calm. i developed comfort in rough water by being in rough water, not by swimming laps in a pool. i've seen non-swimmers be totally fine while swimming class IV, and competitive swimmers freak out in class II. Yes, there is a correlation between swimming ability and comfort in water, but correlation does not imply causation.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but the original post referred to not allowing any nonswimmers to partake at all in a paddling trip, and with that i disagree. With proper leadership and a pfd requirement, I'd let them go with, paddle, and have fun.
edited: i just reread the original post. i see that a non-swimming adult can still go, but must be paired with another adult. if non-swimming kids can go, then i've got no problem.
“Strength"
Yanoer’s first line probably describes me as well. I’m not that strong of a swimmer either, but I still have some basic advantages - another set of relevant strengths:
Even without being a “strong” swimmer”, I’m reasonably comfortable in the water. I know I can float/rest/pace myself as needed. I know not to fight the water, to let it support me, to swim across rather than against rips/currents, to minimize wave beatings by ducking some to conserve energy (not feeling your head has to be above water all the time makes many things easier). Basically, I know I can manage in the water for some time, because I have done so - in pool, (slow) river, lake, and sea (all for fun, so far…). The water is a somewhat familiar place (but one alway given special respect and attention it deserves).
Panic kills, and being uncomfortable in the water is ALREADY at least a mild form of panic. It places that person at a huge disadvantage - and that’s with some basic ability to swim. Take away that basic skill level (average swimmer Yanoer described - or the BS test requirement demonstrates) and you’re in serious trouble as soon as you hit the water - whether you recognize it or not. Now add other problems that go with pretty much any scenario that got you in the water…
A PFD is not a substitute for swimming ability and water experience/comfort level. It’s not a “lifesaver”. It’s just a flotation aid providing another layer of defense on top of the assumed baseline of basic swimming ability/water comfort. It’s meant to extend water survival time, add some level of support if injured (consciousness and ability to keep face up/head out is assumed), etc. A single layer of added defense that is not enough on it’s own.
Teaching your daughters to swim
You’re OK with them paddling before being good swimmers because you (with years of water experience/training) are there - acting as lifeguard!!!
Do(did) you let them go out alone on the water as non/poor swimmers. I think not.
You’re own actions are shooting down your own arguments here.
we agree
i think we crossed wires. i don’t advocate kids with no water experience going on a river trip by themselves. as long as they have an adult with and a pfd on, i’d let anyone go.
if a kid has a pfd on, i’d also let them paddle around a lake or pond in a canoe or kayak with their friends without an adult in the boat, within reasonable distance (no mile-long crossings or anything like that).
when i was a kid though, i would do those things before i could really swim very well, and i thank my parents for giving me that freedom. “Where were you for the last couple hours?”, was asked of me all the time when i was a kid. Wandering around the woods, paddling around the lake, and so on were common answers.
daggermat touches on this below
I don’t think the comfort factor can be overemphasized.
strong defined
Like others, I defer to daggermat and other’s comments below on being comfortable in the water - that’s what I was really trying to say when I used the term “strong”.
I think it is great!
Cheers,
JackL
strong swimmer…
when I got to Hawaii, and am in shorts and rash guard, I dive and play in big breaking waves all day long. I just love playing in the breaking water.My wife watches me and shakes her head.
That’s completely different from when I come out of my boat in the surf zone in northern california, in my dry suit, spray skirt, pfd. A short swim in will have me sucking wind and tired. Completely different. I used to think I could swim out of anything, and if the poop hits the fan I’ll give it a go, but I work more on staying in my boat than anything else.
I don’t know what this has to do with the discussion, but I like thinking about swimming in Hawaii.