polite ?
Whoa, no baiting intended. I believe the Socratic approach is more polite than direct confrontation. By asking a question or series of questions which lead to logical conclusions people can reason together rather than just get angry. My only regret is that this is not happening here. What is my point? I think your responce reveals the point. Can there be any doubt that if my questions could be answered, they would have been? The conclusion is, the question cannot be answered, as there is no such thing as a Freestyle paddle or hull for that matter. Freestyle canoe is a set of skills that reside in a paddler regardless of the paddle or hull involved. The point of Freestyle canoe is that the performance of any given hull or paddle can be maximized by knowledge of the basic principles of hull, paddle, and human dynamic interaction. In my opinion the complete paddler knows how to get the best use out of the paddle in hand.
That is all fine and dandy
and I agree with your ‘philosophical’ point, however I think you’d be kidding yourself to say that there doesn’t exist a style of paddle preferred and most utilized in freestyle competition, at least.
I had simply assumed that the point that any paddle used to effect freestyle (or “precision quietwater” if your prefer) maneuvers is subsequently a freestyle paddle is obvious and needed no commentary. Because, quite simply put, to open up that can of worms is to embark on what is nothing but a fruitless embroilment over semantical minutia.
Furthermore, I feel it was pretty obvious I was referring to paddle features commonly attributed to “freestyle” paddles currently on the market. To even point out that any paddle can be used to effect freestyle maneuvers was not germane to the discussion. But thank you for your insight.
kidding mself ?
First, you are welcome for the insight. It comes from many years of being a FS instructor, entering national Freestyle competitions, and over a decade of hosting FS symposia. Am I kidding myself about preferred hulls and paddles in competitions? No. But you see the competitions are only a small part of the sport.
Second, you keep trying to make this about me. It is not. I think the problem here is that because you so freely use this term FS paddle, I assumed you were knowledgeable about some of the ongoing issues surrounding the use of these words. I understand now, that you unknowingly strayed into a long term debate over the use of nomenclature which implies that FS canoe is limited to certain hulls and paddles. An example of how this can effect a sport can been seen in racing canoe competitions, in which long debated hull and paddle specs and lead to some of the weird looking racing hulls seen today which defy logic. As a result many Freestylers are sensitive to the implication that FS is limited to certain types of hull and paddles. The manufacturers use the term FS paddle because it’s a good marketing idea. Some fairly decent Freestyle paddlers will say that Freestyle paddles and hulls do exist. Some of us who have been in this for the long haulare burned out trying to convince the public that FS is not some specialized sport that requires some esoteric and expensive hull or paddle. People with hulls that are hard to turn actually benefit as much or more from FS technique as those with easy to maneuver hulls. FS is great training for WW paddling. Do you see so called FS paddles or hulls in WW? You have blundered into the question… is FS all about gear or technique? Is this a big deal? It is for some of us because it directly impacts our life and sport.
Exactly
No I haven’t blundered into it.
This is exactly the semantical minutia I was previously referring to.
You’re the one hung up over the divide between the gear and the practice, not me. I’d really appreciate it if you didn’t project that fixation onto me.
What we were involved in was a discussion about grip types, and I mentioned I’d love to see a touring or freestyle paddle from Pat. I guess my bad for not saying “what is commonly marketed as a freestyle paddle,” because it gave you exactly the ammo you were looking for to wax grandiloquently about this preoccupation of yours.
The reason these posts are about you, is because this is your hangup. Pat knew what I was talking about, which was my goal. I am only sorry I wasn’t specific enough for you, this derailment might have been avoided.
Now you’re a knowledgeable fellow. I knew it when I read your first response; though I wasn’t about to give you a pedestal to lecture from. And if you want to create a discussion about the paradox of boat/gear vs. paddler/skill, go ahead and start a thread about it. You’ll probably find me mostly in agreement with you.
As for this discussion, I am quite sorry, but I think it wasn’t exactly the best demonstration of tact to latch onto a language quibble and make such an issue of it. I think my point was clear, it was clear that Pat got the message, there was simply no reason to bring that debate here.
Ditto
T for white water.
Sorry pagayeur, but agree w/ above…
I know, i know .... The very word " freesyle " could mean just about anything.
The paddlers i have spoken with have all called themselves " freestyle paddlers " and from our conversations on what they told me, I took this to mean they were all involved in the competitive manner as they described to me as "freestyle"
The paddle(s) they all described matched exactly to my ill fated ' model '
some background
Hi onnopaddle :
Welocme to the conversation. I hope you will not take my comments to heart and become angry. I mean only to make certain points. I see the term “freestyle” bandied about a good deal in this group so maybe now is a good time to include some background.
The term Freestyle can indeed mean many things to many people, but back in 1994 the ACA formally sanctioned and adopted a National Freestyle Canoe Council with a curriculum, system of instructor certification, and competitions. We’ve been teaching clinics, and holding comps since that time. Most folks in the U. S. canoeing think of this group when discussing Freestyle Canoe. I have been a competitor, instructor, judge, and now head judge over the past 10 years. I wrote the current FS Canoe competition guidelines. I know all of the competitors well. Is there a certain style of paddle favored by FS competitors? Well, within very broad parameters, yes. But remember this, FS comp is only a small part of a larger discipline, so the competitors are not the final arbiters and probably wouldn’t care to be. When competing, I won 4 medals with 4 different paddles. The perennial tandem champs now retired have won national comps with straight and bent shaft paddles. The current champions in solo and tandem use a wide variety of paddles. The people to who you spoke probably prefer a certain style Paddle for FS canoe but can that small a sampling lead to the conclusion that this is ‘the” freestyle paddle. I think not. I imagine that if you asked them the same set of questions that I originally posed they also could not agree on a final description.
The more important point here is that FS canoe is a learned skill that can be applied to any hull and paddle, so in order to do FS maneuvers one does not have to have a designated FS paddle or hull. FS is about knowledge, not gear.
No worries … personal preference
should win everytime. Freestyle ‘rules’ are good.
I am climbing a different mountain with the one I am working on now … One that I am familiar with (OC) : )
how about an adjustable length
tent pole? That’s what I could use right now.
I have some locks you might use
… will work w/1" ID
I make my paddles.
Straight shaft with a pear shaped grip. But I carve an angle into the palm face. Flip the paddle 180 degrees and get a different feel. I like that. But it looks weird. Solo canoeing on Ozark Streams mostly. Lakes and BWCA paddling also. Western Red Cedar, Basswood and Sassafras are my woods of choice. I don’t give a rats ass about FS. Elitist attitudes are a bad thing. To me it ain’t art, it’s about going somewhere.
right
Onno you are a good sport and correct. Keep working on what works for you. I notice you choose not to attack the messenger when confronted with evidence, but rather accept it for what it is and keep going. I intend no oneupmanship only to qualify my credentials as any good student of the subject would do. Keep paddling and making paddles that work for you.
Which grip is best for
dead fish polo?