John Winters wrote a chapter in
the FreeStyle Instruction manual on paddle physics…
However the text and the graphs don’t correlate and most of it is beyond me.
I prefer to visualize paddle action as vector forces.
Levers too…intuitively it seems the longer the paddle the more force on the grip and shaft hand…I think we would all “feel” that if we had an Sugar Island shape paddle with an ottertail length. Some of us just need to shorten our paddles with every year.
I imagine the fulcrum over my head…I guess. Except in the Northwoods stroke where its the hand resting on the paddle and the gunwale.
I don’t think the paddle is a lever
technically. You are not prying with it, but rather just sticking it in the water and pulling yourself past it. The angle of the paddle changes in the water not because you are prying but because it has to as you move past.
See if you can get to this page…
– Last Updated: Dec-07-09 5:50 PM EST –
http://cboats.net/technique/
This updates the c-1 stroke shots greyak posted. Modern c-1 slalom paddlers are extending or forward-bending the torso to reduce the "horsing" that occurs when one throws the torso backward to pull the blade through the water. I personally think that even less torso action makes for more efficiency and better hull motion. It helps to keep that hull bobbing minimized.
Good, it works!
Link works fine
but its the old horse on this end that may have trouble wrapping around the mechanics of that forward stroke…it IS quite different.
When the water gets soft we will see.
in my opinion…
– Last Updated: Dec-08-09 1:30 PM EST –
we are off on a false premise. No paddling is based on a Class 1 lever system. All paddled craft are a Class 3 lever. I do not have the technology to reproduce diagrams, here but hope the simple effort below will come through correctly and enlighten. This is a classic Class 3 lever diagram with paddling components added.
/\
Load (hull)
----------Effort (paddler)-----
\/ Fulcrum (blade)
Pagayeur
Think what you want, but you are…
… essentially describing the same thing. When you “pull” on the shaft, you “pry” with the lever (and as far as body mechanics goes, levering off and driving the hull past bests pulling on and dragging the hull past every time).
I don’t think anyone specified type…
… of lever originally (other than to say “couple” vs simple type 1 lever), so I don’t agree it’s a false premise. At the general discussion level here, a lever is a lever. Going a bit further helps clarify, but doesn’t negate the original premise.
A really simple comparison of type 1, 2 & 3:
http://www.technologystudent.com/forcmom/lever1.htmor
notwithstanding
– Last Updated: Dec-08-09 1:48 PM EST –
the various rhetorical approaches to "premises" or not, I hope others can benefit from the paddling physics that I espouse. Fact is, the O.P. contained a diagram of a Class 1 levering system and most of the discussion following was based on that concept. For those who are trully interested in the physics of paddling, do some research on Class 3 levering systems and decide for yourselves if my "premise" is correct.
The diagram, in my previous post did indeed get scrambled, as I had feared so here is a second effort.
/\
load(hull)
-------------effort(paddler)------
\/ fulcrum(blade)
sorry folks
I can’t seem to make the diagram post the way it was typed. Move the “fulcrum” over to the right so that it is under the end of the line. Now, “load” is on the left end, the “effort” is in the center, and the “fulcrum” is furtherest on the right. That is a Class 3 lever diagram.
I guess it’s a matter of…
… coming off as being helpful vs being right. You can be both of course, but it doesn’t come off so well to call the OP’s premise “false”. OP was not wrong so much as not having your level of knowledge about levers.
Since you brought up type IIIs, and our body’s have some of the best examples of same, you might enjoy Imre Jamesy’s "Power Circles (which I suppose could be be seen as multiple overlapping type 3 lever systems working in concert in the stroke - going yet another step beyond your single level 3 lever "espouse"ments) 
http://kemecsey.uw.hu/Zen.html
Also, not “scientific”, but rather subjective/experiential technique stuff that takes a while to grasp and apply (the “rubber ducky” stuff in particular gets to the point about effectively driving the hull forward by levering past the paddle):
http://kemecsey.uw.hu/kayaktech-angol.html
Combine what he’s talking about in both and your paddling will change for the better (and your perceptions about what’s going on will never be the same again).
Type 4 lever?
Grip hand moves, lower hand moves, and blade moves in water. Therefore, no static fulcrum exists. My suggestion is to amend the classical view of physics. Nobel Prize nominations graciously accepted.
Jim
Premise discussion is really off-topic.
I’d like to hear more discussion of the idea that paddling is better understood as Class 3 lever mechanics and increase my understanding in that regard. If you insist, we can discuss other topics privately.
Sorry Jim,
someone beat you to it - Quantum (not Classical) Mechanics. There’s still time to crack the Grand Unified Theory though.
Regardless of whether
there was a false premise or not, there is published support that a boat paddle represents a third-class lever (Grimshaw, Paul (2006). Sport and exercise biomechanics. London: Routledge. ISBN 9781859962848). Also, as Glenn mentioned above, the relative movements of the fulcrum, effort, and load seems to support this. For all classes of lever, the effort and load move relative to the fulcrum, which remains stationary. It seems a bit counterintuitive that the blade would remain fixed, but the photos that Greyak linked to above are pretty convincing. Keep in mind, though, that because water is a Newtonian fluid, this is only true at high strain rates - i.e. the drag on the blade is only high when trying to move the blade quickly through the water. If you move the blade slowly with much lower force, the drag will be low and the blade would slip through the fluid.
Nomenclature
Instead of ‘Type 4 Lever’ we could call it ‘paddle’.
(I don’t believe in dark matter)
Terminology: the three classes of levers
Egad, you guys are a stochastic array of quantum mechanical unruliness.
Let’s get the terminology straight about the three classes of levers. Here are moving gif illustrations of first, second and third class levers:
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/lgifs/Lever1.gif
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/lgifs/Lever2.gif
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/lgifs/Lever3.gif
So, to reframe the discussion questions:
- Is a paddle a first, second or third class lever, in the context of the three force points of grip hand, shaft hand and paddle blade?
- Or, is the paddle a lever whose class the paddler can alter dynamically through technique changes?
- If the lever class can be changed dynamically by paddling technique, for what reasons or under what circumstances would the paddler do this?
In my next post I will offer my unresearched gedanken experiments on the role that relativity plays in answering question #1.
It’s Third
– Last Updated: Dec-08-09 8:20 PM EST –
BUT... when you put torso into it your fulcrum moves... it's a "4th" or as I like to call it "paddle".
I don't know shit about a canoe or a canoe paddle but in a kayak you want to go to "4th" lever most all the time in order to spread the load. Using the torso will allow you to go farther and faster without tiring.
Uh, see links provided…
– Last Updated: Dec-09-09 4:19 AM EST –
... and maybe add a bit of imaginative visualization.
I think your type 3 thinking is a step closer (or whatever), but still only part of a more complex system...
Guess you missed all that above. Being stuck on being right can do that to ya! *L*
PS - I see no point in private side discussions on this or tangential topics. The more the merrier, and this ain't your thread anyway.
Feel free to start a new thread devoted solely to type 3 levers. I'm sure it will get you all the focused attention your espousements on the topic deserve if what you're getting as part of the mix here isn't cutting it for you. Or, you could just discuss it more here (instead of waiting for that), and skip the dismissive attitude toward others post content while you're at it (dance with the gal that brung ya).
- All of the above.
Though using them as type 1 levers tends to increase paddle sales more than boat speed.
Does Zaveral make a snow shovel?
– Last Updated: Dec-09-09 7:53 AM EST –
I'm thinking a 52 inch with a 10 degree bend ought to be just about right but, of course, I'd buy it long with a loose grip so I could sneak up on that perfect length. A replaceable titanium tip guard would be nice too.
The fulcrum on my third-class back has been downgraded. I used to be a hit-and-switch marathon snow removal machine, but lately I've found myself more suited to freestyle. I don't have to visualize the location of the fulcrum. I know exactly where it is at all times.
Ayuh, it's snowin' ta beat the band out there.