Another Canadian Builder
For dedicated Canadian solo canoes, we’ve got to include Swift’s Osprey, and the Heron, if they can still find the mold.
Another nice option . . .
Bluewater Peterborough 16 - I haven’t tried this one, but I bet it would make a fantastic solo, and sometimes tandem.
If at all possible, take the canoes you are interested in for a test-paddle.
solo/tandem
I have been paddling for over 40 years I have paddled (and owned) many canoes …I presently have a kevlar Wenonah Advantage and Mad River Malecite, (which is how I solved the problem under discussion) and my son and his wife have my Jensen 18 (which I passed on to them when I found I was mainly paddling solo in it.)
My advice about using a solo for two paddlers was based on the assumption that the second paddler might not be an experienced canoeist and might not react correctly (or fast enough) paddling bow in a canoe that was designed for one person paddling amidships.
The first thing I recommend doing with any new canoe is deliberately dump it. That way there will be no surprises about how much secondary stability it has and how fast that can disappear. You will fall out of my Malecite before you can roll it over, but the Advantage, which is about easy get up to hull speed as any 16 ft. production canoe, is even tougher to heel until the water line reaches the beginning of the tumble home, (which is quite extreme and quite low down below the gunnel. At that point you will find youself swimming so quickly you will feel like a flipped pancake!
Yet I deem the Advantage very seaworthy. I just don’t take it out when winds cause big wave conditions. I also understand it is very sensitive to trim and will weathercock or fall off when running before or down the wind and I make good use of the sliding seat. I don’t see how two paddlers who were not a practiced team could coordinate their movements quickly enough
to handle such a canoe under anything but pretty sissy conditions.
Needless to say, I wouldn’t take a 90 lb. dog in it either!
“Horses for courses,” as the British say!
MorningStar
I’ve spent many happy hours in the RX version, but I’d be the first to say that it’s not a very efficient solo. It is too wide for me to comfortably paddle from the center. Paddling it back-to-back with a Merlin II made that very clear! On the other hand, it feels very solid on edge when paddling Canadian style, and I’ve paddled it with two active 80-lb dogs and stayed dry.
my response
The above points are accurate, but the man admits he thinks canoes are twitchy which means for sure his occasional partner will have similar feelings.
My first canoe was an OT Discovery 164. It’s 34-inch beam and round hull makes it a much better solo boat than my Morningstar, but I wouldn’t recommend it to him as it doesn’t satisfy his stated needs.
I also know from experience that paddlers who are not racing or in a hurry, and are not waterdogs don’t like my 164 because it’s too “twitchy” as with nearly every move it reminds them they could be but one mistake away from tipping over.
I’ve found these same paddlers are comfortable in my Morningstar. It’s not as fast as the 164, but it solos okay.
By definition, the fact that the man wants a cross-over boat means he’s not obsessed with speed and is willing to compromise.
I think we all have to admit that a disproportionate percentage of the posters to this forum are obsessed with speed, which is both amusing and annoying, as I believe that most paddlers just want to be out on the water having a good time.
If speed is the trait that trumps everything else, perhaps we should tell him to just go get an 12-foot aluminum skiff with an 8 hp Honda outboard?
Fair enough
– Last Updated: Mar-26-07 2:28 PM EST –
Although I think folks often talk about speed when they mean efficiency. I don't care how fast I'm going -- no knotmeter in my boats -- but I do want to be able to make progress upwind, or get off the lake quickly when the weather kicks up.
I suspect that the composite version has finer lines and is a bit quicker than my RX, and would certainly be better for portaging.
Can’t believe no one mentioned Souris
– Last Updated: Mar-28-07 9:59 AM EST –
River canoes, or did I miss it?
Souris River canoes are made right there in Canada and are very good canoes. Many paddlers here have had them and most all comments were very positive.
We do not seem to hear much about them anymore. The reasons I believe responsible for that are: sudden steep rises in prices before the rest of the industry. Either bad timing on their part or forced into it? Exchange rate of currency. An importer that can be difficult to get along with seeming to put off dealers/customers. BUT ... only the first really effects you, and the other makes seem to have caught up in cost so that should not be a problem anymore. That leaves you in a win-win situation.
There should be lots of used Souris Rivers and good bargains on new as well.
The Souris River Quitco 16 and Solo 16 are the same canoe, just outfitted differently. So find a 16 and add a seat or two. You will have one of the better handling solo/tandem compromises.
Oh, almost forgot to mention how it handles. I found, and others seemed to agree, that the Souris River canoes handled between the Bell and the We-NO-nah canoes. I would say they handle a little closer to Bell canoes. If they did not I would not have had several of them.
Souris would be my choice if you are a normal to somewhat heavy canoe camping packer.
And to you Souris lovers out there - No, mine is still not for sale.
>:^)
Mick
Charlie’s holding out. ;^) StarFire!
– Last Updated: Mar-28-07 10:03 AM EST –
I would consider the StarFire to be one of the very best tandum/solo I have paddled.
It was made by Bell. The design and mold, along with the rights to all the "Fire" Canoes, became CE Wilson's when he left Bell.
The specs of the MorningStar and the StarFire always seemed the same so wondered why they produced to canoes so much alike. Never liked paddling a MorningStar, so figured would not like a StarFire either ... Then I got to paddle one, WOW! What a difference
Lake Placid is not that far from Ontario.
StarFire would be my choice for day paddling and if you are a light canoe camping packer.
>:^)
Mick
And one more
I am looking for a similar thing. My investegations have revealed another excellent candidate:
The Hellman Scout.
http://www.hellmancanoes.com/canoes.html
Was Thinking the Same…
…thing, Mick, but I never PADDLED one. Go ahead, “Plug” your canoe, CE Wilson, I’ll vouch for the QUALITY of those Placid River Canoes, just never paddled that boat.
As for the boat’s I’ve paddled, I like the Ranger Otter, the Souris Quetico 16, and the Wenonah Adirondack. I’ve reviewed all these canoes here, you can look it up quicker than I could re-type it here. IF twisty rivers are your passion, the Mad River 14TT is a good solo boat for you and a dog. Just don’t buy this one if you like slow rivers and lakes, this boat was built to play in rivers and doesn’t like to track without some work. I just don’t like that weight. IMHO a 70lb 14’ boat FEELS heavier than a 16’ 70lb boat, especially at the end of the day.
Good luck! WW
StarFire RIP
StarFire differs from MorningStar in that it is narrower, 34 v 36", symmetrical, and has 3" rocker at each end.
Two good local racers borrowed mine for a trip up the Chub River and spoent quite a while turning towards each bank until they got co-ordinated.
That said, Star is currently unavailable. The mold was received in horrid shap. We reconditioned it w/ a Duratek product and pulled some nice boats.
Then we flanged it for vacuum infusion. The vacuum imprints the carbon fabric through the gel into the mold surface. Every hull requires buffing and the mold requires sanding w/ 1500 grit, rubbing compound and machine glaze before reuse.
We don’t keep contact lamination resin in the shop, so StarFire is out of production. I doubt potential sales will justify the plug, mold sequence costs, so we’ll probably never offer it again.
Bummer, big bummer!!!
Really liked paddling the StarFire! Trouble is it belonged to a friend. She will not part with it. Appears that “hole” in my fleet will be empty for some time, but maybe one will show up.
:^)
Mick
Tell Me More
So what’s the NAME of Charlie’s company which produces “Fire” canoes? I, too, like anything which paddles “like” a Bell.
Or, does “nothing paddle like a Bell”?
Glenn
Fire boats
Fire boats are produced bny Placid boatworks in Lake Placid NY.
They are carbon/kevlar hybrid hulls produced by a proprietary resin infusion process.
2 pack canoes; SpitFire and RapidFire.
2 kneeling sport canoes; WildFire and FlashFire.
They are trimmed with cherry or Cobrasox Rails, and feature two tone gel coats and deluxe outfitting. placidboats.com is a functional website.
Nothing paddles like a Placid BoatWorks!
– Last Updated: Mar-29-07 8:58 AM EST –
Bells paddle pretty darn good, but as we all know Bell had been letting the Fire Boats go and even down grading them. Well, as most everyone knows, Bell no longer makes the Fire Boats.
Only Charlie and Joe make the Fire Boats now. Not only do they make them, they make them better. I do believe I heard that they upgraded these DY designs as well.
Now if I can just get my RapidFire back from the wife! She is not a very experienced paddler and does not go often. After tipping several other canoes I put her in the Rapid Fire. Even though the Rapid Fire is a narrower canoe it is in fact more stable once in it as it is a bottom sitter. After a short paddle she was calling it "MY CANOE". After several times I mentioned that it was in fact not hers, but my canoe. Got the "I never said it wasn't dear." and I didn't say "My canoe". BUT she keeps calling it "My canoe". If I ask real nice, just maybe she will compromise and it can be "Our canoe". ;^)
>:^)
Mick
BTW: The site, http://www.placidboatworks.com/ , says that there is a new Placid BoatWorks fast pack canoe comming out soon. Rumor has it that it is longer (narrower?) and much faster than the lightning fast RapidFire, but not as stable. Sounds like a hot exerciser/racer.
Just had a look…
… at the placid boat website and to me it seems like these boats are a kayak without the decking or dry hatches. A boat this narrow has got to me more tippy then the wider canoes. In a kayak at least you can brace easy and even if tipped you you can get back up.
Great idea thou I must say if one would want a strictly solo boat that very lightweight and would not be affraid of tipping.
Just my newbe opinion 
No, not tippy once seated in canoe.
– Last Updated: Mar-29-07 4:52 PM EST –
Read above post about my wife. She has trouble with a SummerSong or one of my old FlashFires, but does fine in the narrower RapidFire. Read the site info about how you are seated in canoe and it's stability. These are not regular canoes as you are likely used to. These are more fun to paddle for the paddler that likes quick, responsive, yet stable hulls. They are pack canoes.
A pack canoe was designed to be small and light. To be thrown up on one shoulder, while your pack is on the other making one trip portages. Portages are frequent when paddling the waters pack canoes were made for, the Adirondacks and such. Can you imagine loading and unloading a kayak for all those portages? Not me. Give me the pack canoe. The pack canoe is sometimes called a kayak without a deck. But then a kayak is actually a sub class of the larger class "canoe" anyway. The pack canoe is also designed to be primarily paddled with a double blade paddle.
In a traditional pack canoe there is no seat hung on the gunwales or fastened to the sides of the hull. You sit on the bottom on a small raised seat. This does two things: The canoes are very light as the side walls do not need all that extra material to support your butt. And as you are lower the narrow hulls are actually more stable than traditional canoes that are wider, but have high seats. Just ask my wife!
Oh yeah, almost forgot. Most people I have seen do not step into a pack canoe as you do a traditional canoe; one foot, the other foot anf then sit down. We grab the gunwales, swing one leg over, lower ourselves onto the seat, and then bring the other leg in. I do however stand up in my pack canoes just like I do any ohter canoe to better scout or retrieve lures from trees, etc.
Now what do you think?
>:^)
Mick
Oh, did forget. Main difference between canoes and kayaks seems to be the displacement. Canoes have fuller hulls and float higher which can make them more efficient due to lass resistance, especially in the long haul.
Stability in pack canoes
It’s quite simple, with a lower paddler center of gravity, pack canoes are more stable than kneeling canoes once you are in and sitting. They’re much more stable than canoes where you sit on a seat hung from the gunnels. In a pack canoe, you are nearly sitting on the water. It’s clearly the most stable of the three types I mentioned. pack canoes easy to portage due to shorter length and lighter weight. They are slower (shorter hull length) and require less effort to paddle (less wetted surface) within their lower speed range. Try to go too fast and you quickly hit a wall. The Rapidfire is an exception to that low speed generalization. Paddle drip can be an issue in Pack canoes when using a double blade.
Of course kneeling canoes and hung seat canoes have attributes that make them better choices than pack canoes for many uses. The longer hung seat canoes have a much higher carrying capacity. They are usually tandem, so you can bring along another person or two and/or carry a much greater load. Kneeling canoes are more maneuverable due to paddler position giving the ideal stroke location (vertical) and easy stroke variations. Kneeling canoes are more fun in freestyle and work best in white water. Kneeling in a hung seat canoe makes it more stable (lower center of gravity) and is usually done in waves or rapids.
Pick how you want to use the canoe and that should lead you to the best type of canoe for that use. No canoe does everything well. All have pluses and minuses. When my wife comments on my ample canoe and kayak collection, I reply “One doesn’t try to play golf with only one club”.
Tomek, I too have had the experience of my wife referring to one of my pack canoes (Hauthaway Nomad) as “her” canoe. I’m going to try to keep her from paddling my new Rapidfire so I don’t loose it next. She won’t go in a seated tandem because it is “too tippy”. As I have thought about her reaction to tandem canoes over the years, I think I’ve figured out part of the problem. I’m bigger than her, so she was always in the bow. In the bow, she doesn’t see whatever I might be doing to the canoe, she only feels it tip or move. Were she in the stern so she could see why the canoe was moving or tipping it would help. Now it is just easier to have her use a pack canoe.
Dave
Don’t know about Tomek - - but
I like the sit in design. Now that looks like a canoe for my (not my budget though)
How do the sit in canoes work with kneeling positions. I’d assume a bit more instability, but would be good.